What's so great about Mozilla?

[parrots]

3VaxoP - stop with the praising of MS. It doesn't matter what MS did for the OS market. This is about Mozilla vs IE. You have obviously conseded that Mozilla follows the standards better than IE. Therefore, Mozilla is a better browser, from a technical standpoint.

so i dont care if they exist, really. a simple firewall/antivirus program can stop anything those webpages throw at u

You shouldn't need them, the Web browser shouldn't be able to attack your computer :p

Hmm, even dreamweaver creates webpages that wont work in mozilla. i am not going to go thru the code to fix every niggly little bug when it works fine in 98% of the browsers. those other 2% already know why my page wont display correctly - they browser is sh!t. again, who cares about standards. its all about which browser can load the pages correctly.

Once again, you are missing the point. IE is not superior because it renders sloppy code, and sloppy code is not acceptable because everyone does it. And once more, standards are important, and should be followed. If they weren't, then the internet wouldn't exist. It exists because people went with the W3Cs TCP/IP standard. If they hadn't, we would have all kinds of protocals beign used, and no way to connect to everyone else.

If the standards should be followed or not is not the issue. I don't care if you think they should or shouldn't be followed. The fact is there are standards, they should be followed, and Mozilla does. Can you say the same for IE? No.

[giantsnyy2002]

Originally posted by VaxoP

youre a funny man. 95 sucked? it revolutionized the computer world. xp sucks? strange.. i see it as the fastest selling os so far. and no, its not because of chip makers that we have 2.5ghz cpus. if it were up to *nix, wed still be using 486's. microsoft revolutionized the computer world, and with its os came a great amount of applications and games, which demanded faster processors. these were made by the chip creators which resulted in microsoft releasing better oses which used more resources, gamse/apps were created for it and the chip makers created faster chips. and the loop continues. if it wasnt for ms, a 486 would still suffice if the os was *nix.

95 did suck, it crashed almost every day. yes, XP sucks, it takes up 2GB OF SPACE... THE WINDOWS FOLDER IS 2GB... And no, its not microsoft that created an operating system for the processors, so why dont you think before you post. And no, i doubt that. Windows plainly sucks. The only one worth using... is windows 2000.

im not saying what i truely feel about you right now, as i would be banned if i did

[AgEnTsMiTh]

VaxoP and giantsnyy2002 This is not a thread about OS. Obviously you are not here to lend in the discussion of Mozilla Browser vs The others. Do us a favor, go start a thread on the topic you seem to know a little more about, and discuss it there.

[OPaul]

Wow.. this is OT

[pinky]

Originally posted by VaxoP

and why shouldnt ie make the standards?

if 95% of the people are using ie, then obviously what ie says it what goes..

if a webpage displays well in ie and not mozilla, then its mozilla that needs to be changed, not ie.

Um, no...If a page is displayed improperly in either IE, Mozilla, Opera, I don't care what browser, it's one of two problems, the web page is incorrect, or the rendering engine is incorrect. Market share DOESN'T dictate what is standard and what isn't.

and wtf is everyone talking about ms only caring about our money? the only app i remember "buying" is windows xp - absolutely the best os ive ever used by far, stable, fast, and extremely efficeint with games, ram and cpu. and i got with it , windows media player, msn messenger, internet explorer, direct x, sideshow, etc etc etc. as well, with the one thing i bought from microsoft, i can download hundreds of thousands of applications that do anything and everything. all this for $180?? pretty damn good deal i must say.

Take off the blinders. The consumer market is just a SLIVER of what MS does. Where they make huge money quickly is corporate accounts. Have you looked at their licensing plans lately and how they're killing people? Well, I have. It's ludicrous how their contracts work. You are essentially forced to upgrade when MS says and pay licensing fees that nearly doubled in the V6 licensing scheme. Oh yeah, and check out their pacts with Dell, HP, etc..

and whether you like it or not, ie DOES set standards. i know soooo many people that code for ie only, including me. i dont have the time or need the frustration of getting the page to work in mozilla. i just have a nice link on all my pages pointing to IE that if the page isnt displaying right, get a real browser.

Funny, if all browsers were standardized PROPERLY you'd only have to do it once anyway. It's great to hear though that you ONLY practice writing sloppy non-standardized code for IE. I sure hope you don't have any aspirations of becoming a web developer any time soon. You'll be in for a rude awakening.

microsoft owns the market, it owns computers, and is doing an absolutely AMAZING job at how much its accomplished and what the computer world is now. dont be mad at them for kicking every other companies a$$, dont be mad cause you arent microsoft, dont be mad that only one company is making all the cash. i dont see why people cant simply accept the fact of what microsoft is, they always want to trash it. microsoft makes oses and a few software apps. that allows people with BRAINS to code applications, create hardware, make games for the os that is used by hundreds of millions of people. companies like macromedia, nvidia, ea, etc etc etc were smart enough to accept the fact of what microsoft is, coded for its os, and look at them now - racking in millions of dollars..

Funny, I didn't realize Microsoft software dictated hardware. Oh, that's right, it doesn't. :right:

Microsoft owns the DESKTOP market. How much more blatantly ignorant can you get? How much Microsoft has accomplished. That's rather amusing. While I'll admit Microsoft has done extreme good to the computer industry what in the past five years have they done that's been revolutionary or worthwhile? Really, stop and think about it. Win2K is probably the best product to come out of Redmond, that I can give you, but WinMe, WinXP, well they're just revisions that people were charged full price for. MS to date STILL hasn't released a grade A server OS that can compete with a Unix/Linux server (Check the numbers on who's running what Server OS and you'll laugh at how far behind MS is). We'll see how .NET is. IIS, lets not even talk about that pathetic piece of software. Here's to hoping IIS 6 has changed substantially.

and then theres linux/mozilla..

lol

You're right, an OS making inroads in the server and handheld market, and a browser that offers standards compliancy and stability for those of us who don't want to deal with IE and its faulty roots. ActiveX is a security nightmare. Active Scripting needs to go. But MS added all of these wondeful features to make it easier for you, the little good sheep following the MS flock.

its because of microsoft that we now have 2.5 ghz cpus and gigs of ram as compared to a 386

:right: No, it's because of technological advancements in hardware, not Microsoft and their software. If it weren't for the AMD/Intel war I guarantee you we'd all STILL be sitting back at 1.2 Ghz or so. AMD gave/is giving Intel a run for their money so Intel HAD to COMPETE, something MS will learn about some day.

really? i beg to differ. if they got here by other companies foolishness, why isnt mac/linux/unix the kings of computers?

Marketing. Bill Gates is a SALESMAN, always has been. IBM had OS/2 and the Mac zealots had their Macs, but good ole' Bill could market to the people and get his product in their hands (well, not really his product, just one he bought off of IBM for a song. Why the hell they did that I'll never know.)

they are not stuck, and will never be overtaken.

LOL...This is America pal...It's not a matter of "IF", only "WHEN".

[AgEnTsMiTh]

pinky, could not have said it better myslef. Bravo!!

At least I can rest knowing there are more people out there with a level of clear headed thinking.

[VaxoP]

Here are some benchmarks i just did.

Loading 3 pages, neowin, download.com and google.ca, with focus on download.com all 3 windows maximized.

IE: ram 19760, cpu 17

Mozilla: ram 25008 cpu 35

Put both programs in visual basic to test (of course, gecko crashed the second i drew it on my form)

time to load download.com (deleted cache for both browsers)

Did 10 tests.

Mozilla: 4.206 seconds

IE: 3.671 seconds

once again this is without cache, so the lookup, download of images, and everything is started from scratch

err.. this should shut u microsoft haters up for a while.

[parrots]

Originally posted by VaxoP

err.. this should shut u microsoft haters up for a while.

You are missing the point. We aren't MS haters (for the most part). I like Mozilla because it is better. Not because its not from MS. The point of all this is not to "shut us up." It is to have a intelligent, non flaming discussion. That comments just proves that you are close-minded and you are in this converstation not to present the facts, or to learn, but to "shut us up" and prove that your view is correct.

[pinky]

Oh, did you forget, IE is an integral part of the OS so part of its RAM useage is tied up in system processes.

Besides a comparions of two pieces of software based solely on Mem useage is FUD. That tells me nothing. I can give you examples where the IE mem useage reads as high at 80megs.

That reading tells me nothing.

So please, when you're trying to argue, at least have some CONCRETE evidence to back up what you say. That quick little comparison trying to show all of us how "right" you are is just pointless.

[threetonesun]

VaxoP:

Go to www.boston.com in both Mozilla and IE. Tell me how many windows up up with each browser. Surf some more sites. I'm amazed when I go back to IE how much crap pops up that I never see in Mozilla.

Also, grab a 56k modem for this next one. Tell me how big the installation file is for IE, and how big it is for Mozilla.

Finally, I think I'm going to start coding in Mozilla only. It does support the standards, so anything that works in Mozilla should work in IE, right? If IE is so advanced it can do error correction, it must have the basics covered pretty well.

[VaxoP]

and quit telling me to stop takling about microsoft.. read thru the posts.. someone else started that arguement.

in most cases pinky, market share does not dictate standards. in this case it does. why do u think only 2% of the people use a browser other than ie? (this includes opera, a kickass product that still cant display some sites correctly). its because mozilla CAN NOT display many sites correctly. this is why people switch to ie. and this is why ie's standards are THE standards. if mozilla can not render a page correctly, ie can, people will use ie, ies "standards" come out on top.

are you trynig to tell me that *nix could have gotten us where we are today? LOL. it was all microsoft and windows, whether you like it or not.

and i am a web designer, i get close to 20,000 hits daily - not a lot but its enough. those 2% that cannot see my page properly are redirected to my sponser. i make money off those ignorant people.

i agree *nix is a better server - that is ebcause they have been at it for 30 more years than microsoft. give microsoft 30 years to work on servers and then compare that product to what *nix is today.

amd and intel had to create better processors because windows demanded it, and microsoft introduced such a huge amount of people to the computer world that amd and intel actually had a market for their chips.

but please, im still waiting. if ie and windows is so full of holes, why have i not been hacked again? perhaps i didnt boldly state my ip, only in regular text. so here we are: 24.65.218.104. come get me plz

[Septimus]

Originally posted by giantsnyy2002

95 did suck, it crashed almost every day. yes, XP sucks, it takes up 2GB OF SPACE... THE WINDOWS FOLDER IS 2GB... And no, its not microsoft that created an operating system for the processors, so why dont you think before you post. And no, i doubt that. Windows plainly sucks. The only one worth using... is windows 2000.

im not saying what i truely feel about you right now, as i would be banned if i did

Off topic I know, but since when is the XP Windows folder 2GB's? I've got a system running most things including VS.net Pro, and shed loads of more software installed and its just over 1GB. My linux install dwarf's that at about 4GB's.

Oh, and I like both browsers... Mozilla for day to day, IE to handle everything it can't.

[VaxoP]

Originally posted by threetonesun

VaxoP:

Go to www.boston.com in both Mozilla and IE. Tell me how many windows up up with each browser. Surf some more sites. I'm amazed when I go back to IE how much crap pops up that I never see in Mozilla.

i have. i didnt get any popups. u know why? cause i downloaded one of the hundreds of plugins available for ie because of the flexibility of ie, and i got myself a popup stopper. not one popup. same in mozilla i see after turning on the block popup feature.

Also, grab a 56k modem for this next one. Tell me how big the installation file is for IE, and how big it is for Mozilla.

i dont have time for that.. what i do know is ies setup is 500kb i think, and mozillas is a dozen megs. how aboutyou tell me the values.. but i dont really care cause ie is already with my os, mozilla is not, and im not using a 56k modem.

Finally, I think I'm going to start coding in Mozilla only. It does support the standards, so anything that works in Mozilla should work in IE, right? If IE is so advanced it can do error correction, it must have the basics covered pretty well.

yep, u should be fine :). but youll spend alot more time creating those pages.

[Septimus]

Originally posted by threetonesun

VaxoP:

Go to www.boston.com in both Mozilla and IE. Tell me how many windows up up with each browser. Surf some more sites. I'm amazed when I go back to IE how much crap pops up that I never see in Mozilla.

Also, grab a 56k modem for this next one. Tell me how big the installation file is for IE, and how big it is for Mozilla.

Finally, I think I'm going to start coding in Mozilla only. It does support the standards, so anything that works in Mozilla should work in IE, right? If IE is so advanced it can do error correction, it must have the basics covered pretty well.

Went to Boston.com, and no other windows popped up in either browser...

:ermm:

[VaxoP]

Originally posted by pinky

Oh, did you forget, IE is an integral part of the OS so part of its RAM useage is tied up in system processes.

Besides a comparions of two pieces of software based solely on Mem useage is FUD. That tells me nothing. I can give you examples where the IE mem useage reads as high at 80megs.

That reading tells me nothing.

So please, when you're trying to argue, at least have some CONCRETE evidence to back up what you say. That quick little comparison trying to show all of us how "right" you are is just pointless.

well, i just closed explorer.exe and i can still open up ie from the task manager.. so i duno what youre talking about. even if it is linked to ie, who cares? explorer is alerady loaded anyway. but.. opera is not tied to explorer (neither is ie i guess since explorer.exe isnt open) yet it uses 8 megs of ram.. hmm. and i did 2 tests, both proved ie used less resources, and loaded the page faster. (with no cache for both)

here is some concrete proof:

Loading 3 pages, neowin, download.com and google.ca, with focus on download.com all 3 windows maximized.

IE: ram 19760, cpu 17

Mozilla: ram 25008 cpu 35

Put both programs in visual basic to test (of course, gecko crashed the second i drew it on my form)

time to load download.com (deleted cache for both browsers)

Did 10 tests.

Mozilla: 4.206 seconds

IE: 3.671 seconds

once again this is without cache, so the lookup, download of images, and everything is started from scratch

Also, i closed explorer.exe and guess what? internet explorer stil loads in a second or so - mozilla takes 11.2

[parrots]

Originally posted by VaxoP

cause i downloaded one of the hundreds of plugins available for ie because of the flexibility of ie, and i got myself a popup stopper. not one popup. same in mozilla i see after turning on the block popup feature.

You shouldn't need a plug, thats the point. You shouldn't need a firewall to block attacks through IE, it should do it w/o any help.

Originally posted by VaxoP

but youll spend alot more time creating those pages.

Not if you learned the right way. If you learned the way you apparently did, then yes, you will need to take some more time. I learned XHTML when it came out, and I can code just as fast as I used to...plus my pages work on both browsers first time!

Originally posted by VaxoP

and quit telling me to stop takling about microsoft.. read thru the posts.. someone else started that arguement.

microsoft owns the market, it owns computers, and is doing an absolutely AMAZING job at how much its accomplished and what the computer world is now. dont be mad at them for kicking every other companies a$$, dont be mad cause you arent microsoft, dont be mad that only one company is making all the cash. i dont see why people cant simply accept the fact of what microsoft is, they always want to trash it. microsoft makes oses and a few software apps. that allows people with BRAINS to code applications, create hardware, make games for the os that is used by hundreds of millions of people. companies like macromedia, nvidia, ea, etc etc etc were smart enough to accept the fact of what microsoft is, coded for its os, and look at them now - racking in millions of dollars..

You were the first one to talk about how great MS is :p

[pinky]

Originally posted by VaxoP

and quit telling me to stop takling about microsoft.. read thru the posts.. someone else started that arguement.

in most cases pinky, market share does not dictate standards. in this case it does.

Sigh, no, W3C dictates market standards, not MS. Get that through your head.

why do u think only 2% of the people use a browser other than ie? (this includes opera, a kickass product that still cant display some sites correctly). its because mozilla CAN NOT display many sites correctly.

Wrong again, it's because many sites were coded improperly, many of them done by developers who only did them for IE, much like yourself.

this is why people switch to ie. and this is why ie's standards are THE standards. if mozilla can not render a page correctly, ie can, people will use ie, ies "standards" come out on top.

No, people switched to IE because 1) they bundled it with their OS which Bill Gates with all his wondefrul marketing talent got into everyones hands. "Back in the day" people didn't have broadband, so why should they download a HUGE fricking browser when IE is right there. People started using IE en masse, not because it was better at that time. (Later on in the fight I can concede Netscape was old, out of shape, and dead, but that was well after MS strong armed their browser on the people)

are you trynig to tell me that *nix could have gotten us where we are today? LOL. it was all microsoft and windows, whether you like it or not.

In the server market yes, in the desktop market, no.

and i am a web designer, i get close to 20,000 hits daily - not a lot but its enough. those 2% that cannot see my page properly are redirected to my sponser. i make money off those ignorant people.

Oh, so hard to resist the personal attack. There's nothing ignorant about those 2%. Most often, you'll find that those 2% are the most intelligent of people. YOU just consider them ignorant for some unknown reason.

i agree *nix is a better server - that is ebcause they have been at it for 30 more years than microsoft. give microsoft 30 years to work on servers and then compare that product to what *nix is today.

Thirty years from now is a little too late, don't you think? I mean really, this VAST empire of Microsoft which you so worship should have been able to overtake anything a bunch of Unix geeks could do. Thirty years from now, Unix servers will still be 30 years ahead of MS server products, and thats without the HUGE R&D money backing.

amd and intel had to create better processors because windows demanded it, and microsoft introduced such a huge amount of people to the computer world that amd and intel actually had a market for their chips.

You're damn right. Those MS OS's are DEMANDING as hell. OH, wait, that' s not a good thing.:o

but please, im still waiting. if ie and windows is so full of holes, why have i not been hacked again? perhaps i didnt boldly state my ip, only in regular text. so here we are: 24.65.218.104. come get me plz [/b]

Oh please, you sound like sound punk teenager at this point. Stay on the topic.

[parrots]

Nicly done Pinky.

/me expects a "I'm not a punk teenager, you're the punk"

[threetonesun]

Originally posted by parrots

You shouldn't need a plug, thats the point. You shouldn't need a firewall to block attacks through IE, it should do it w/o any help.

Ah, thank you :)

Also, the installer for IE (last I checked) was around 25 megs. Bare minimum.

And as far as processor speed goes, the gains we see AREN'T BECAUSE OF WINDOWS! If you need a 2.4 ghz processor and 512 megs of ram for Windows, or IE, for that matter, your system has a serious problem. It's always for games or other applications that need that power. And in many corporate cases, it's to power server farms that don't even run windows.

And for your information, if windows hadn't come around, something else would have. There were things before IE, but as many people have pointed out, the marketing magic at Microsoft got it to first place. Just like it's got it drilled into your head.

I may use XP, but I don't have some blind loyalty to it. I certainly hope soemthing better comes along that Microsoft, but I can admit that they do lead the PC market right now.

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Originally posted by VaxoP

IE: ram 19760, cpu 17

Mozilla: ram 25008 cpu 35

Put both programs in visual basic to test (of course, gecko crashed the second i drew it on my form)

time to load download.com (deleted cache for both browsers)

Did 10 tests.

Mozilla: 4.206 seconds

IE: 3.671 seconds

once again this is without cache, so the lookup, download of images, and everything is started from scratch

Also, i closed explorer.exe and guess what? internet explorer stil loads in a second or so - mozilla takes 11.2[/b][/b]

Hmmm strange Vaxop.

Mozilla takes 1-2 sec to load for me, either your posting pure crap, or your not loading Moz at boot.

As far as mem usage goes, on my system.

IE 28,980

Moz 28,360

Whats wrong with this picture??

[Dazzla Veteran]

Step one: Fresh install of OS

Step two: locate "Internet Explorer"

Step three: Press delete

Simple :rolleyes:

[themonke]

can someone please hack the moron?...i would do it if i knew how...

i don't really care who uses which browser as long as they're happy with it

i personally like mozilla more than ie right now because of the stability [it does crash sometimes but what software doesn't]

[parrots]

Originally posted by Dazzla

Step one: Fresh install of OS

Step two: locate "Internet Explorer"

Step three: Press delete

Simple :rolleyes:

Heehee, I wish it was that simple, but to delete IE you need to delete Windows. Another reason Mozilla is better...you don't have to remove you whole OS to get rid of it. ;)

[AgEnTsMiTh]

Check your email Vaxop i sent you a screen shot to PROVE the mem and system usage.

Oh and by the way, I used the FAST built in Email client in Mozilla to send that to you. Another great feature of Moz. The mail client load time is in an instant. Gota love that vs Outlook

[Septimus]

Mozilla takes only 3 secs to load even without being loaded at bootup.

Got to disagree on the mail client though, had huge problems with it when using multiple servers on IMAP and POP, just slows to a crawl. Then again, I haven't found a mail program that suits all my needs full stop. Any ideas?

Outlook sucks due to its virus potential, but it has its uses if you work in a team.