Paul Thurrott on OS X Leopard

[khaos34]

Seems like a quick reactionary article written with tears in his eyes :) I didn't know they someone could take all of this so personally. People need to calm down just a bit, although I think it would be interesting for him to go over the OS later though (8 months from now after he's cleaned up a bit).

People also need to lighten up about some of the stuff said at the keynote too. Of course Apple is jealous that Windows has the bigger market share. It's obvious that Apple's poking fun and making jokes to its important audience of developers to make people feel good about developing for the Mac and not for Windows, that's all.

[ikyouCrow]

Comparing 2 incomplete operating systems is like arguing over who has the better looking invisible friend... just my $0.02

my friend is hotter then your friend *LOL* And she's invisable :) (or does she blow up? No, she's invisable *LOL*) :rofl:

:p whatever... i still have the hottest invisible friend.

well, the thing with Windows is that Microsoft always makes it compatable with all the old programs. Even old DOS programs can run on XP. Apple doesnt really care about backward compatability.

very very true. people always seem to look the other way when apple just plainly drops a product line or application from it's support; it's their stance on obsolescence (is that spelt right?), or at least used as an excuse.

if M$ didn't care about backwards compatibility and forced all the developers to re-code all their apps, Vista would be out by now.

[DreadBoat89]

he's just bashing windows cuz he feels inferior

something along the lines of people having small youknowwhats and driving big cars (like that ep of family guy lol)

[ad345zAdZ0d9_]

Trolling? I was *not* trolling. I do not troll. My point of view is such that I, and most other people, see the word Whatever as a colloquialism, and not to be used in Journalism. It is both childlike, and unprofessional

[spenser.d]

Trolling? I was *not* trolling. I do not troll. My point of view is such that I, and most other people, see the word Whatever as a colloquialism, and not to be used in Journalism. It is both childlike, and unprofessional

Well, it's a good thing Paul Thorrott isn't a reporter then either; merely just a blogger stating his opinions that he isn't forcing on anyone, or forcing anyone to agree with. It's not like he gets paid to post these kinds of things.

-Spenser

[xxdesmus]

Jobs can continue to bash Vista and Microsoft. At the end of the day, he is still jealous that Windows operates over 90% of the world's computers and his little joyous OS is nowhere close.

I am glad you said it, and I agree. :yes: (Y)

[Koolslacker]

I had respect for Apple until I saw the "I am pc ad." Now I hate Apple. Most of the ad complain about other companies such as Dell, Compaq and so on. What does MS has to do with crap loaded software on PC. The only feature I like from WWDC was the Time Machine. Every thing else is just waste of time.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Does that even exist anymore? When windows catches up to Quartz Extreme than they can start worrying about matching core image. Frankly theres nothing impressive graphically in vista that cant be done by every other OS out there, and not to mention most of their visual effects are used when they shouldn't and if anything get in the way.

Yes "Avalon" is now called the Windows Presentation Framework. It's part of the .NET Framework 3.0 (formerly "WinFX") and available for XP/2003 and built-in to Vista.

Quartz Extreme isn't comparable to Avalon at all. Quartz Extreme is like the Desktop Compositor (DWM) in Vista. Except that the DWM is more impressive. It's a more modern, complete solution where Quartz Extreme builds on Quartz (which is essentially GDI+ in Windows land). Also the architecture of graphics subsystem in the Mac OS is very, very inefficient, resulting in a great performance loss for OpenGL applications. Vista has no such limitations, and even drives Direct3D further performance-wise.

The Core Animation demo looked exactly like a dozen Avalon demos that Microsoft has shown in the last couple years. It's great that they're building something comparable on the Mac - but they can't claim Microsoft is copying them when this is the first they've shown of it.

Its not a matter of copying, apple had no idea what windows search was going to be, it was merely an idea/concept, they implemented this idea how they saw fit.

How can you claim that when we shipped Windows Desktop Search 6 months before Apple shipped Tiger? Are you saying that copied it "accidentally?"

If similarities exist than that just means that both companies have found that must be the right way to do it.

Yeah, unless it's the other way around :rolleyes:

[revvo]

If Windows "will always be inferior to Apple's OS" then explain the market share. Even more so, explain why Windows is used so much more widely than OS X is, ie. businesses and such and that the Vista delay caused such an impact on businesses (as the press reported) and that you dont hear sh** from most businesses about anything to do w/ OS X.

Because Bill Gates and Paul Allen droped out of College at the right time to create Microsoft and provide IBM with the software and system they needed. Bundling DOS with IBM computers launched their success. Everything that follows is a series of non-stop expansion and slowly getting more and more support from companies. Not because Windows is better, not because OS-X is worse. Because the right things happened at the right time For Bill n Paul.

And where are we at today? At a point where Microsoft could literally render Windows into **** and people would still use it cause they need it to run their favorite applications and have no other options. Why do companies use Microsoft? Support. For business having a company to resort to in time of crisis or whatever is such an important thing which is why OpenSource isn't successful in the field with the exceptions of companies that do offer Opensource software and support altogether such as RedHat linux distributions and Novel's SuSE.

iPods are everywhere. Does it mean it's the best mp3 player? RAZR Phones are everywhere, does it mean it's the best cellphone? Do you know such of thing as marketing? Ads? In Microsoft's case, their early success and partnership with IBM helped in creating this "fake monopoly" where they can act as a monopoly when in theory it's not.

well, the thing with Windows is that Microsoft always makes it compatable with all the old programs. Even old DOS programs can run on XP. Apple doesnt really care about backward compatability.

That's why I can't run the game Duke Nukem 3D without many modifications? Or Ultima 8 Or Blood 1.

Apple doesn't really care about backward compatibility? Logicallyt hinking, who needs it most? The company with 90% market share or the company with 2%? I have ran quite a number of DOS applications which fail under XP. If I'm bull****ting, then explain why so many people build a pc out of old computer parts and run Windows 95/98 on it for their old games n software?

To give you a more recent example, can we have DX10 on XP? Why Vista only? Can't run newer games on XP at full fledged graphics now can I? I know this is not "backward" but it's still breaking compatibility with their own software to purposely make you upgrade.

Edited August 10, 2006 by rainman.

[I am Reid]

Jobs can continue to bash Vista and Microsoft. At the end of the day, he is still jealous that Windows operates over 90% of the world's computers and his little joyous OS is nowhere close.

Yeah, in order for apple to make up that much of a difference in market share would take at least a decade. Its not like a browser were you just install it on any comptuer. They would have to nearly double the total number of computer their are in the world just to be somewhat close to 50%. I have no clue as to how many computers their are in the world, but im guessing its waaaaay more then what apple even has the ability to make in a decade.

[Amnesia]

I hate Paul Thurott, he's always been biased.

[cptcaveman2004]

I had respect for Apple until I saw the "I am pc ad." Now I hate Apple. Most of the ad complain about other companies such as Dell, Compaq and so on. What does MS has to do with crap loaded software on PC. The only feature I like from WWDC was the Time Machine. Every thing else is just waste of time.

I think thats why the guy states "Hi, Im a PC" rather than "Hi, Im Windows"... last time i looked, dell and compaq did make PC's. Those ads were aimed at the Manufacturers and developers as much as the OS provider.

[ikyouCrow]

That's why I can't run the game Duke Nukem 3D without many modifications? Or Ultima 8 Or Blood 1.

To give you a more recent example, can we have DX10 on XP? Why Vista only? Can't run newer games on XP at full fledged graphics now can I? I know this is not "backward" but it's still breaking compatibility with their own software to purposely make you upgrade.

like Jazz the Jackrabbit, Commander Keen (all demos), OMF 2097, Doom, Doom 2, Quake 2.

i've gotten all these to run on xp and the only one i couldn't run on Vista was OMF 2097.

it's not promised that all DOS titles will run. with apple, you're assured that short of some extra coin (Classic environment), your old apps will not run.

with regards to the DX10 issue, i agree with you. how can they backport Avalon stuff and not backport DX10 (at least limited DX10 support)?

they need to rethink this, because they may be cutting off the majority of the gaming market with this move. i mean like (exagerated figures follow) a gajillion windows gamers are gaming on xp with the latest DX distros.

are we too late to protest?

[suspiria]

As for Apple's comments on Microsoft and Vista, I thought these were extremely childish and unnecessary. Personally I think flaming your competition only makes yourself look worse.

I agree completely. Of course rival companies will take shots at each other, but in my opinion, what Apple said was low.

[Boiling Ice]

You're missing out. Especially if such a petty reason as that is holding you back to use OS X. :|

the below link is what's stopping me from buy a Mac... yet....

but the ads helped in not buying one...yet also :D

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=485533

[Denis W. Veteran]

I've never seen Gates making fun of Apple in his presentations, actually he focus totally on what they can offer for their customers, rather than wasting people's time whining about the other competitor, how they are better than them and bla bla bla...

Quite true. The only Microsoft ads I see on TV are those that "empower the people-ready business." Actually almost all of MS's ads are about telling people they can achieve something. I haven't seen too many Microsoft ads that focus themselves on the average consumer - except for those MSN related ads. Apple, on their other hand, with their annoying as crap "living in dull little PCs, doing dull little tasks"... whatever.

But yeah, both companies haven't changed their styles at all since their inceptions. Apple has always been vocal and fearless in attacking their enemy - first IBM, then MS - and maintaining this annoying-as-blood**** hip attitude while Microsoft remains quiet and gentle to the public eye, yet brutal and backstabbing when it comes to business.

Despite that, I'm still looking into a MacBook Pro as my first laptop, even if OS X 10.5 isn't as much of an upgrade as promised to be. If it wasn't for Boot Camp, most likely getting a Mac would be out of the question for me.

[NeoXY]

I don't get why Bootcamp is such an insentive for some people to get a mac..it makes no sense. If you're gonna buy a computer and run windows, than BUY A WINDOWS MACHINE. Most people buy Apple laptops for the OS as a complet experience, so if you're aming at a laptop that can run windows, than why not save some cash, and buy one thats cheaper than the MBP? There is that plus Boot Camp is a pain in the ass to run. Buy a Mac to run Windows, you're just asking for trouble...:/

[Brandon Live Veteran]

I don't get why Bootcamp is such an insentive for some people to get a mac..it makes no sense. If you're gonna buy a computer and run windows, than BUY A WINDOWS MACHINE. Most people buy Apple laptops for the OS as a complet experience, so if you're aming at a laptop that can run windows, than why not save some cash, and buy one thats cheaper than the MBP? There is that plus Boot Camp is a pain in the ass to run. Buy a Mac to run Windows, you're just asking for trouble... :/

I bought my Mac Mini because it's small and quiet - perfect for running Windows Media Center in my living room. Though I do frequently wish it had a damned eject button.

[FlibbyFlobby]

I enjoyed reading this article. I thought Paul talked alot of sense and he didn't get too caught up in the whole fanboy arguement, he just called things as he saw them. It was refreshing to read someone calling Apple out as they are clearly copying things too, they're just covering up better in the marketing and spin departments than others. But then again Apple has always been able to manipulate an audience (hence the prices!).

Personally I think the focus of the conference was more about 'Vista vs Leopard' than what Apple was actually doing with Leopard, which is a shame. Maybe the 'secret' features will be impressive, but at the moment I can't say I was thrilled with what I saw. Another thing I was a bit baffled with is that Jobs believes that they have shipped 5 major released in the time its taken to develop Vista. Everyone one of those releases was minor (lets be honest) and they each cost about as much as a single copy of Windows XP does too, which has even has all the upgrades and patches thrown in for free.

[ikyouCrow]

Another thing I was a bit baffled with is that Jobs believes that they have shipped 5 major released in the time its taken to develop Vista. Everyone one of those releases was minor (lets be honest) and they each cost about as much as a single copy of Windows XP does too, which has even has all the upgrades and patches thrown in for free.

i agree.

if they were major, shouldn't we have Mac OS XIV or Mac OS XV now?

major updates get whole-number version identification, don't they?

[DreadBoat89]

I don't get why Bootcamp is such an insentive for some people to get a mac..it makes no sense. If you're gonna buy a computer and run windows, than BUY A WINDOWS MACHINE. Most people buy Apple laptops for the OS as a complet experience, so if you're aming at a laptop that can run windows, than why not save some cash, and buy one thats cheaper than the MBP? There is that plus Boot Camp is a pain in the ass to run. Buy a Mac to run Windows, you're just asking for trouble...:/

i agree... those macbooks are a bit overpriced... just look at the cheapest macbook... 512MB of memory and like 60gigs of space... competitors offer at least 1GB of memory and at least 100gigs of space for the same price...

i highly doubt the eyecandy we call the case costs a lot to manufacture.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Jobs can continue to bash Vista and Microsoft. At the end of the day, he is still jealous that Windows operates over 90% of the world's computers and his little joyous OS is nowhere close.

Apple doesn't really care about getting OS X on the "worlds hardware", if they did they would sell it separately, Apple cares about selling the hardware, and they are doing pretty good at that regard.

Yes "Avalon" is now called the Windows Presentation Framework. It's part of the .NET Framework 3.0 (formerly "WinFX") and available for XP/2003 and built-in to Vista.

Quartz Extreme isn't comparable to Avalon at all. Quartz Extreme is like the Desktop Compositor (DWM) in Vista. Except that the DWM is more impressive. It's a more modern, complete solution where Quartz Extreme builds on Quartz (which is essentially GDI+ in Windows land). Also the architecture of graphics subsystem in the Mac OS is very, very inefficient, resulting in a great performance loss for OpenGL applications. Vista has no such limitations, and even drives Direct3D further performance-wise.

The Core Animation demo looked exactly like a dozen Avalon demos that Microsoft has shown in the last couple years.

...

First off, it's cool Avalon survived the trimming process.

And yeah, Quartz Extreme isn't comparable to Avalon, it is like the DCE/DWM, but no, Quartz Extreme doesn't "build on quartz", they are different things, they just have similar names (Quartz is the API app's use to draw, Quartz Extreme is what handles desktop acceleration)

And with the proper hardware (e.g. current) Quartz Extreme does not slow down OpenGL app's (due to the use of either a Frame Buffer Object, or pbuffer's, i can't remember which), on low end hardware i can still pull 100+ FPS in a first person shooter (a simple one i will admit, I'm just showing that it's not "very, very inefficient" as you claim). I think XGL does it the same way, with the proper hardware of course.

And with the speeding up of Direct3D, is that 9's or 10's, because if it speeds up 9, then that's very cool.

Oh yeah, and i thought the Core Animation demonstration looked like the "City of Music" ad Apple put out, or am i thinking of the wrong demonstration?

[Joel]

I think thats why the guy states "Hi, Im a PC" rather than "Hi, Im Windows"... last time i looked, dell and compaq did make PC's. Those ads were aimed at the Manufacturers and developers as much as the OS provider.

The last time I looked, a Mac was still a Personal Computer. And a Wintel box does not have to come with anything installed, not even Windows. People build computers all of the time, but can't install a Mac OS on them. That's Apple's fault, not the PC makers'.

[L3thal Veteran]

Apple doesn't really care about getting OS X on the "worlds hardware", if they did they would sell it separately, Apple cares about selling the hardware, and they are doing pretty good at that regard.

Umm, even if they did release it to the public, it still wouldn't install in a Wintel box because well...Apple doesn't make it compatible with it.

[djesteban]

heh... apple bashing microsoft makes me remember the presentation apple did some years ago describing how their hardware architecture (at the time) was sooo much better than what was found on PC... Hehe... now look who's using the Intel chip.

Anyway, being mainly a windows user, I have to say it, OSX is far more refined OS. There's absolutely no doubt about it in my mind. BUT, when it comes to the workflow, man, I just can't stand Apple's operating system. The place where I work now and the place I have worked before exclusively uses windows, linux systems and you sometimes see some systems running on unix still.... I have never see with my own eyes yet, a post-production facility that does serious movie post-production and 3d animation, modelin, rendering, etc that has apple computers as main tools in the pipeline. never. I've seen places where they had 10-15 macs with people working on Shake, but the most ironic things was that most of the computer there that were running Shake were PC's with version 2.5... lol! :)

Even in university last semester, I used Maya on a PC and all post-proc apps on PC (fusion, after effects, flame (not on windows evidently bu hey, still PC)). The only thing I use a mac for was for final cut when I had some quick montage to do... but that was because I wasn't doing some serious editing. Else, I would've try to get a hold of a Discreet Smoke or similar.

All in all, I just can't imagine myself doing an A to Z project (3d, modeling, animation, mental ray rendering, post, et, etc) on macs... it jsut scares me when I think just about the idea itself....

but yeah.... even with that in mind... OSX is still a better OS... simpler, prettier and based on a non-retarded architecture.

my 2 cents :p

Edited August 11, 2006 by djesteban