Paul Thurrott on OS X Leopard

[redfish]

It's always the same with these topics - lots of people make their points only to have someone comes in and label them into a vague group, for or against, then proceed to tell everyone to open their minds. It would be better to tackle specific people and points rather than group everyone together and gloss over what they have to say, rather than contibuting to the problem.

@_Pablo - Great analogy. I'm fed up of negative advertising - it's the same with politics. Promote what YOU do well and then hope that people can see what you stand for and have to offer.

Don't go too far with that. For example, in politics, sometimes you have to set straight some truth about your opponent. The problem with negative politics can also be in positively-oriented politics. You can be positive and still have everything you say be complete BS and spin.

Apple can certainly talk about what makes Windows a bad OS. Making an Apple-cult, whether based on positive or negative advertising, but based on half-truths, is :[ though

[MrCobra]

The problem with Apple is that they are in 1984 and still thinking the PC can't do anything the Mac can do.

This is almost 2007 and Apple still thinks you can't do desktop publishing, multimedia, or even graphics on PC's.

Don't forget about entertainment (games). Apple never mentions that because they don't it.

Ok, ok, ok...

I don't like Apple but OSX is pretty good. Is it better than Windows? Depends on what you want to do. Is it more stable than Windows? Absolutely. Apple builds OSX to run on their hardware. They get full control. Microsoft builds Windows to run on everything and therefore the "absolute" control between hardware and software is lost.

I would love to see a Mac do everything natively in OSX that can be done natively in Windows. Screw bootcamp because that's defeating the purpose of having a Mac in the first place. If I could use OSX and only OSX and have it all I'd switch in an instant.

To each his/her own.

Don't go too far with that. For example, in politics, sometimes you have to set straight some truth about your opponent.

Truth in politics? You must be joking. The only truth that exists in politics is that all polititians are corrupt. If they don't start out that way they sure end up there.

[Yagi]

like Jazz the Jackrabbit, Commander Keen (all demos), OMF 2097, Doom, Doom 2, Quake 2.

i've gotten all these to run on xp and the only one i couldn't run on Vista was OMF 2097.

it's not promised that all DOS titles will run. with apple, you're assured that short of some extra coin (Classic environment), your old apps will not run.

with regards to the DX10 issue, i agree with you. how can they backport Avalon stuff and not backport DX10 (at least limited DX10 support)?

they need to rethink this, because they may be cutting off the majority of the gaming market with this move. i mean like (exagerated figures follow) a gajillion windows gamers are gaming on xp with the latest DX distros.

are we too late to protest?

This is all true but remember we are talking about an operating system founded in buisness machines, an OS that was primarily focused on businesses and not home users. It was later that the OS went into home machines. Of this 98% market share that everyone keeps refering back to I'd like to know what percentage of that is made up of buisnesses because I believe it out weighs home users, maybe not alot but I'm sure a good percentage. Yes, Windows XP can't play all your legacy games, but I don't know one buisness app that doesn't work in XP. I work for a non for profit, we have a crap load of old DOS applications unfortunately and all work on XP thank God. Some crazy accounting program named Champion, an old spreadsheet program that has records back from the 80s, they all work amazingly. Though I'm sure Microsoft is sorry that not all games work, I think they're a bit more concerned that buisnesses can still run. I also think we need to keep in mind games are for entretainment and fun, and you can't tell me you are really that upset Blood 1 doesn't work when you have plenty of goory games that look and play a hell of a lot better then that. I will admit, Blood 1 was an amazing game, but Shadow Warrior was far better especially the dialogue! WHO WANTS SOME WANG?!?

[Fourjays Veteran]

Apple builds OSX to run on their hardware. They get full control. Microsoft builds Windows to run on everything and therefore the "absolute" control between hardware and software is lost.

Something people often forget when complaining about bugs, crashes, etc, etc. Apple have the advantage of not only only having to make the software work on a very small number of possible system combinations, but also knowing the hardware inside out (as they make it themselves). Whereas MS have to make Windows run on potentially millions if not billions of possible system combinations.

[sjms]

This Thurrott guy is a moron, alot of the features in Mac OS X today came from the Copland project and NeXT OS. This guy needs to learn how to write an article and get his facts straight.

and that is why he gets to write in magazines and websites and even better yet gets paid to do so. in your case its with the rest of the prattle posting on these threads

[Linkinfamous]

Something people often forget when complaining about bugs, crashes, etc, etc. Apple have the advantage of not only only having to make the software work on a very small number of possible system combinations, but also knowing the hardware inside out (as they make it themselves). Whereas MS have to make Windows run on potentially millions if not billions of possible system combinations.

Plus the backwards compatibility. Can you imagine if Microsoft said something to the effect of: 'Ok guys, every pre-vista application will now open in a virtual copy of XP. You won't be able to run them natively.'

We'd never hear the end of it.

[Ironman273]

Something people often forget when complaining about bugs, crashes, etc, etc. Apple have the advantage of not only only having to make the software work on a very small number of possible system combinations, but also knowing the hardware inside out (as they make it themselves). Whereas MS have to make Windows run on potentially millions if not billions of possible system combinations.

In fact, mos of the BSOD people still complain about are driver or hardware issues, not OS issues. Since Mac has their own hardware, they have to rely on a much smaller pool of drivers, but they're not immune, Check out what was done on a Mac with 3rd party drivers: http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-ga...keover-by-wi-fi

[Michael_C]

It really is quite true that the commercials portray Apple as smug, arrogant, and having a major superiority complex. I know I sure as heck don't want to buy into that community.

Exactly, people like that are usually referred to as ******s or tossers. I guess that is pretty much Apple fanboys summed up though.

[»X«]

Here we are again. Ive never owned a mac, I've never even used a mac OS in my life. But here's how I see it.

There a lot of moaning on about how apple steal features that windows vista will use. So what?

As far as i am concerned if Apple can use a feature of vista, improve on it and implement it better (which from Microsoft's track record is something they cant do) then its good for us all. If Apple improve on something then maybe MS will do the same, in the end making it better for all of us. I don't care if they "steal" ideas. They are obviously very good at it and therefore will be the better OS. I use XP, but if i had unlimited funds, i would switch to a mac in a heartbeat.

[Quillz]

^^ um, I don't really believe that 2-3 year life span ...I know plenty of people with Windows computers that are way over 5 years old. I really doubt the average person goes out and buys a new computer that often.

I still have a PC from 2001 that works fine and is used every day. And I have an even older one from 1999 that is used for parts; spare RAM, a HDD, etc. This "life span" thing is BS and sounds like something that Apple fanboys have made up.

[Dr.Jones]

Come on guys. Who cares who copies who. As long as the program (in this case operating system) grows and gets better, I don't care. Neither should you.

Tell that to Steve Jobs, he's the biggest "they copied us ! whaa whaa !" whiner of them all

[Fourjays Veteran]

I still have a PC from 2001 that works fine and is used every day. And I have an even older one from 1999 that is used for parts; spare RAM, a HDD, etc. This "life span" thing is BS and sounds like something that Apple fanboys have made up.

I read about it in a PC Magazine that I'm subscribed to. Someone wrote to them asking about the end of support for Win 98, and they replied saying why support is removed, but also mentioned that it is done based off the average PC life span being 2-3 year.

Averages are not the majority. As a quick example;

1,1,1,2,2,3,4,4,5,5,5 = 3 (3)

1,2,2,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5 = 2.9 (3)

1,1,1,1,2,2,3,4,4,5,5 = 2.6 (3)

None of those 3 examples have 3 as the most used, yet the average was still 3 (rounded up). Obviously it won't always be 3 (sometimes it could be 4). Just trying to show that just because loads of people have 5 year old computers, doesn't mean an average of 3 is wrong or made-up.

[Ironman273]

Here we are again. Ive never owned a mac, I've never even used a mac OS in my life. But here's how I see it.

There a lot of moaning on about how apple steal features that windows vista will use. So what?

As far as i am concerned if Apple can use a feature of vista, improve on it and implement it better (which from Microsoft's track record is something they cant do) then its good for us all. If Apple improve on something then maybe MS will do the same, in the end making it better for all of us. I don't care if they "steal" ideas. They are obviously very good at it and therefore will be the better OS. I use XP, but if i had unlimited funds, i would switch to a mac in a heartbeat.

Actually, what this thread is all about is the exact opposite of what you're saying. Apple, particularly in the keynote address, blames MS of copying everything they do. If you switch the names around in your argument, it's still the same argument, but I wonder if it's still the point you're trying to make.

[MacOSXMan]

WWDC Secrets Paul Thurrott Hopes You Miss :yes:

[Windam]

I think Paul Thurrott is like Michael Bolton with fun articals to read, they include pictures too!

[Proforma]

WWDC Secrets Paul Thurrott Hopes You Miss :yes:

I honestly hope that you don't believe that Mac propaganda.

What Paul said was right on the money.

Dev show or not, it does not make a difference.

No sour grapes needed, just a little bit of truth.

Remember how the PowerPC blew away Intel's chips?

None of that was even remotely true and many Mac fans

took it as truth. Now Macs are using Intel chips. Gee, I wonder why!

Now, I think Macs are cool and mac fans are not as bad as a lot of Linux fans.

Thank God for that. At least they have some sense.

What Paul said was true.

[xxdesmus]

This Twit's Follow Up

What an absolutely god awful article. He spends 95% of the time whining about Paul while spending very little time actually discussing anything vaguely useful.

As I said on that guy's blog:

"You've had your 45 seconds of fame, go back into your hole, no one cares what you have to say. You're just another mac fanboy with a chip on his shoulder and a very small market share in your pants." (he didn't like that, who'd a thunk? :ninja: )

Edited August 14, 2006 by xxdesmus

[dagamer34]

Seriously though, people have come to expect too much from Apple at the WWDC. With so many rumors flying around about new iPods going to be unvieled or the revealing of the iPhone, I think people just got to caught up in them and missed what the even was about. It's not a media show. It's to show developers what Apple is working on.

People who are disappointed that Apple didn't show enough "consumer" features really should get off their high-horse. The last thing people really need is for Apple to unviel a feature only to have it axed before release. Apple wouldn't like that, shareholders wouldn't like that, and most importantly you wouldn't like it.

Please wait for a consumer-oriented expo to get consumer news. :whistle:

[Brandon Live Veteran]

WWDC Secrets Paul Thurrott Hopes You Miss :yes:

Lame...

Especially where he says:

Spotlight isn't just search, it's an innovative approach that delivers real functionality. Spotlight is also an example of original innovation.

Oooh, so it's both an "innovative approach" and "original innovation." Errr, but no it's not. The idea is the same as Copernic, GDS, X1, and WDS - all of which were released before Spotlight. The implementation looks almost exactly like WDS except it's missing some functionality (which they're adding in Leopard) and they moved the search box to the top-right of the screen. Big deal.

And then he goes on some rant about WinFS (which always stood for Windows Future Storage and never was a new file-system) which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

[hotdog666al]

WWDC Secrets Paul Thurrott Hopes You Miss :yes:

That article contains many valid points. (Y)

[Shadrack]

I'm no Microsoft cheerleader (sorry, it's true).

Heh.. "Whatever" Paul. Sure do sound like a dumb blonde cheerleader. "What-ever!"

It is a good read, but I wish article writers, OS developers, and general forum rats like ourselves would stop discussing features from the stand point of who stole what feature from who and just focus on who has implemented what feature the best or brought it to market sooner. In the end of the day, I hope both OSes look at each other and pick apart what are the best features for an OS to have and implement those features the best they can.

I use them all, so appreciate improvements to them all. I agree with Paul that Leopard should include better features. The one thing I've noticed between my Mac experiences vs my Windows experiences is that my Mac has the original OS that was installed on it and I have never had to reinstall Tiger due to a horribly corrupt OS. Meanwhile reinstallation of Windows is a twice a year thing for me. Something always happens where things are corrupted enough that I could spend hours tracking it down or a few hours reinstalling the OS. I have installed some pretty crappy 3rd party programs on my Mac that have really messed some things up. But they were simple enough to remove and symptoms of having that crap program installed have disappeared. I feel like in Windows once you have installed something, you never truely uninstall it. There are always traces of it in your registry and stray files in your Windows directory that come up and bite you down the road. Oh well..time for another re-install everything afternoon :(

-shad

[Brandon Live Veteran]

That article contains many valid points. (Y)

Like what?

Like his tangent about the Windows Registry - revealing only that he has no idea what it is or how it works?

You'll also discover why the Registry is such a mess for Windows. The Registry is essentially a database for preference files. If you have a corrupted preference file on a Mac, you trash it and start over.

The registry is NOT the same as "preference files." The registry is first and foremost for the registration of components. It maps CLSID and ProgIDs to entrypoints inside files (like COM servers). It's also used as a datastore for state information. The huge amount of I/O and lookup tuning as well as caching that goes on in the Registry makes it ideal for this kind of use. Much more efficient than writing to the disk AND it gets automatically backed up. Plus it's all programmatic and can make platform transitions (like moving to 64-bit Windows) much easier.

In Windows, all of your preferences, including the core settings needed to boot your OS, end up in a huge corrupted database. Did you back up? What, there's no automated Registry backups in Windows XP?

Yes there are. I don't know why you'd ever imagine that there aren't.

If you touch the Registry at all, it's your own fault if Windows comes crashing down in spectacular failure. Did spyware inject something into your Registry amid the tens of thousands of other keys in the Registry hive database? Oh I pity you greatly. At least you know the problem is confined to the five Registry files. Good luck with that.

Standard user accounts can't write to the system portion of the registry without elevation. If you run an application with admin privileges then it can do anything to your system that you can do yourself. How is a malicious application writing something to the registry any different than the same application writing to one of 500 "preference files", installing a new service, changing permission settings on the filesystem, or simply running whatever code it wants.

[Ironman273]

I hate to repeat it again, but it's not about someone copying someone else. That's not news. What this is about is Apple copying stuff, but then saying that everyone else copies them, and they're the only innovators out there. It gets to the point where it's annoying. That's all there is to it. No one is saying MS doesn't copy, but primarily, MS doesn't say MS doesn't copy.

I'm just getting a little tired of people posting responses about "I don't care who copies who" since it's not the point.

[giga Veteran]

Copying is overrated. Everyone copies each other and we all have to live with it.

http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2..._leopard_1.html

[Catharsis]

(Hmm...I'd sure like to know why quotes aren't working.)

As a lifetime Windows user, and as a non-Apple owner, I'd just like to comment on the following...

Time Machine and Spaces--are valuable additions to OS X and worth discussing, though both, interestingly, have been done before in other OSes.

But not Windows, Paul. At least Apple actually realized they might be good to implement. (As a sidenote, does anyone else notice that Spaces is much like Enlightenment's desktops, except much better?)

The other Leopard features Apple announced, alas, are almost all a complete waste of time. They're the types of things one might expect of a minor, interim update, or from free Web downloads. They are certainly not major features as Jobs claimed.

Yeah, cause, you know, Microsoft sure comes out with updates like this once a year like Apple does. :rolleyes:

That's understandable, since Windows is Mac OS X's primary competition (in the sense that 2 percent of the market is competition for Windows) and Apple was inspired by Vista features like Spotlight (er, sorry, Windows Search) when creating its previous OS X version, Tiger.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't OS X base that on UNIX's locate function? Give me a break. Guess what? Almost EVERY OS has a search. Microsoft copied their new one in Vista straight from Apple's way of doing it, and NO ONE can deny that. I've used my friend's Mac, then, when I installed the Vista beta, I couldn't believe how much of a ripoff the new Windows search is. Later in this article, Paul says, "To be clear, Apple borrowed that one from Microsoft, but implemented it much more quickly." EXACTLY. And which is more important? Coming up with a feature first, or actually implementing it first for people to use?

Apple was inspired by Vista

I'm sure everyone sees the ridiculosity in this statement. (Yes, I made up that word.) I mean, is this a joke?

I have to admit to being a bit shocked by how childish Apple is about Vista. Say what you will about Microsoft (heck, I do), but the company is at least deferential to its customers in public, about as far from smug as is humanly possible, and it very rarely takes pointed shots at the competition. From the opening PC guy video ("Widgets, gadgets... completely different. They are their own thing. Just like Aqua. I mean, uh, Aero.") to the last moments of the keynote, Jobs and company unleashed a never-ending, tireless diatribe against Microsoft and its upcoming Windows Vista release.

I think this only gets to Paul because the statements are actually true.

At $129 for each version, that's about $750 on Mac OS X upgrades since 2001. That kind of puts the cost of Windows in perspective.

I do have to agree with Paul here. It is a bit much to charge $129 for a new OS that isn't a complete revision of everything. However, from what I've seen so far, OS X is a better operating system, and you get more for what you pay for that you do with Windows, which, by the way, retails at around $200.

Microsoft has improved Windows by a far greater degree. In the same time frame, it has shipped Windows XP Home Edition, Windows XP Professional Edition, Windows XP Professional x64 Edition, Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 (and 2005 UR2), Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005, Windows XP Home and Professional N Editions, Windows XP with Service Pack 2 (SP2, absolutely a big Windows upgrade), Windows XP Embedded, Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs, and Windows XP Starter Edition in various languages.

And yet, somehow, I'm still unimpressed, considering the differences between the different XP versions are minimal.

Curiously, Serlet did not bring up Dashboard, Apple's environment for widgets, and Sidebar, Microsoft's environment for gadgets. That's good, because Apple stole Sidebar idea wholeheartedly from Konfabulator and other widget environments that predated Dashboard.

Again, who implemented it first, Apple or Microsoft? Even if what you're saying is true, it STILL means Microsoft is copying as well, which leaves Paul with nothing at all from arguing this point. He is actually shooting himself in the foot if he takes this to its logical conclusion. ("Wholeheartedly?" Come on, Paul...)

I'm not actually going to comment on his comments about the ten features that were introduced, but I would like to comment on what I would call Paul's thesis statement about that section...

All of these, of course, are evolutions of existing products and technologies, and not major new features.

Well, "of course," most OS revisions ARE improvements on existing technologies. Most things are for crying out loud. Notice that it's still OS X, not OS XI.

I get a lot of flak from the Mac community...

You think? Maybe because all this article did is say, "But Microsoft is still cool, guys! We have...some...of that stuff too!"

...no doubt this article will start another round of name-calling. (See how Apple's childish behavior rubs off on its fans?)

So, by childish, you mean behavior like calling Apple fans childish...before they've even said anything?

That's a shame, because I'm actually a huge fan of both Apple and Mac OS X.

Uh, did I just misread the tone of the article, or is this statement just to deflect some flaming that you will inevitably incur for statements like the one you made right before this one? Stop trying to protect yourself. It's like a little kid criticizing everything another child does, then saying that the other child is immature for saying anything in defense. Good grief.

I, for one, am hoping that the secret features Jobs alluded to are as inspiring as they are mysterious.

Cool, something we can all agree on. Way to end the article by pretending to be a peacemaker.

Just for the record, I felt really bad for Microsoft when Serlet was bashing them. However, I quickly realized the reason I felt bad was because much of what he was saying was absolutely true. I DO disagree with the method and tone it was done in, but, then, what do you expect from an Apple pep rally? (Props to whoever I heard that from.)

I am glad Paul was able to agree on some things that Apple has actually done better than Microsoft. That was a refreshing surprise...one that I never expected from him.

Well, these were just the thoughts of a lifetime PC user giving his full support of Apple. In my opinion, Microsoft needs Apple around to get them to step up to the competitor's plate and do a better job. For that, I'm thankful, because everyone will benefit from that.