bbc [Official] Doctor Who Thread

[+mram Subscriber²]

On 04/12/2023 at 05:22, TheReaperMan said:

I think maybe it is in relation this very strange choice. 

I know Doctor Who isn't always historical accurate, but it feels weird to change the race of Issac Newton.

I don't think it detracts from the overall episode, instead of changing the races of white historical figures why not focus of historical figures that are not white which are often not talked about as much as they should?

Who really cares?

I mean, honestly, in what world is it significant in any way that the race of a figure (who's historical significance has to do with anything BUT race) needs to be purist?

Personally I tire of inflexible people who will on one hand know this is fundamentally a kids show, but on the other hand expect it to have the mavity of a historical lesson.   Nope.  It's still a kids show.  And thankfully, kids don't care that inclusivity exists.  History can still be taught with some details changed.  Isaac Newton did great things - him being white wasn't significant or relevant in the slightest.  Maybe it's appropriate that a race other than white can be shown doing the same, great things - because after all, it really doesn't matter, does it?

Or are we exposing something deeply personal here, if this somehow offends anyone...?

Best tweet about this:
"Isaac Newton wasn't Asian, you're right. But Charles Dickens didn't blow up ghosts. Agatha Christie didn't fight off a Giant Wasp. Mary Seacole didn't treat Sontarans. Van Gogh didn't stab an invisible chicken. It's #DoctorWho. Get a grip. And they say *we're* the snowflakes..."

[DewThePDX]

On 04/12/2023 at 05:22, TheReaperMan said:

I think maybe it is in relation this very strange choice. 

I know Doctor Who isn't always historical accurate, but it feels weird to change the race of Issac Newton.

I don't think it detracts from the overall episode, instead of changing the races of white historical figures why not focus of historical figures that are not white which are often not talked about as much as they should?

He's a mixed race actor that is half-Indian and half-Caucasian.

No one got mad when a Scot played van Gogh, or when a Scot played a denizen of Pompeii.

No one got mad at The Master played by Sacha Dhawan, an Indian actor, turning out to be Rasputin.

Doctor Who has long played fast and loose with its depictions of historical figures.

 

This is very close to Paul Golding's rhetoric on it.

[DewThePDX]

On 04/12/2023 at 07:36, mram said:

Who really cares?

I mean, honestly, in what world is it significant in any way that the race of a figure (who's historical significance has to do with anything BUT race) needs to be purist?

Personally I tire of inflexible people who will on one hand know this is fundamentally a kids show, but on the other hand expect it to have the mavity of a historical lesson.   Nope.  It's still a kids show.  And thankfully, kids don't care that inclusivity exists.  History can still be taught with some details changed.  Isaac Newton did great things - him being white wasn't significant or relevant in the slightest.  Maybe it's appropriate that a race other than white can be shown doing the same, great things - because after all, it really doesn't matter, does it?

Or are we exposing something deeply personal here, if this somehow offends anyone...?

Best tweet about this:
"Isaac Newton wasn't Asian, you're right. But Charles Dickens didn't blow up ghosts. Agatha Christie didn't fight off a Giant Wasp. Mary Seacole didn't treat Sontarans. Van Gogh didn't stab an invisible chicken. It's #DoctorWho. Get a grip. And they say *we're* the snowflakes..."

Adding onto your point, and bringing over from mine, Rasputin also wasn't an Indian in appearance Time Lord from Gallifrey.

 

Doctor Who has often played fast and loose with appearances of historical figures and facts around their lives. This is nothing new.

[DoctorD]

I guess some people just don't grasp the mavity of the situation when watching a SCIENCE FICTION show...

[FloatingFatMan]

On 04/12/2023 at 13:22, TheReaperMan said:

I think maybe it is in relation this very strange choice. 

I know Doctor Who isn't always historical accurate, but it feels weird to change the race of Issac Newton.

I don't think it detracts from the overall episode, instead of changing the races of white historical figures why not focus of historical figures that are not white which are often not talked about as much as they should?

Honestly, I really didn't think it needed to be pointed out to people...

India has plenty of its own historical figures they could have lauded, so why race swap a western one? It was literally for no other reason than to make a stupid joke.

[Steven P. Administrators]

It actually bothered me more that I spent time wondering why Doctor Who decided to have an Asian actor portray Isaac Newton, that's when it starts to detract from the story.

Is Doctor Who ticking boxes? fucking with people? something else? 🤷‍♂️

Since Doctor Who is not a dark, sarcastic comedy like Blackadder, I'm left with thinking that Doctor Who is attempting to educate the viewer with something by making an in your face obvious change to a historical figure, which led me to thinking "okay, ticking boxes" just like the later reference Tennant made about him being hot. "Am I that now? Oh, okay!" which seemed like another roundabout way of saying "it's okay to suddenly be different than you were before" which is the politically correct thing to support these days.

Want to identify as a cat? "You're not mentally ill, this is perfectly okay! And if anyone disagrees, then they are a shit!" is today's message.

The episode left little to the imagination, except for the things that made no sense.

[margrave]

I just want more Doctor Who

 

EDIT;

 

Was thinking. What if this ALL relates back to him having that face again.... this all might just lead to that NEW actor who is going to be The Doctor.

 

The new Doctor is born, and all else in the timeline might be adjusted back? Maybe?

[DoctorD]

[DewThePDX]

On 04/12/2023 at 11:31, Steven P. said:

It actually bothered me more that I spent time wondering why Doctor Who decided to have an Asian actor portray Isaac Newton, that's when it starts to detract from the story.

Is Doctor Who ticking boxes? ###### with people? something else? 🤷‍♂️

Since Doctor Who is not a dark, sarcastic comedy like Blackadder, I'm left with thinking that Doctor Who is attempting to educate the viewer with something by making an in your face obvious change to a historical figure, which led me to thinking "okay, ticking boxes" just like the later reference Tennant made about him being hot. "Am I that now? Oh, okay!" which seemed like another roundabout way of saying "it's okay to suddenly be different than you were before" which is the politically correct thing to support these days.

Want to identify as a cat? "You're not mentally ill, this is perfectly okay! And if anyone disagrees, then they are a ######!" is today's message.

The episode left little to the imagination, except for the things that made no sense.

"Identifies as a cat"...

 

Next you'll claim that the stories classrooms are installing litterboxes for students that identify cats are true.

 

This is just sad to see...

 

[TheReaperMan]

Thinking about this further the change could be due to the Doctor having an old face and the mavity change is an indication that the time line is messing up, things are getting all out of sync and could be like all the Bad wolf hints leading to a larger plot point.   

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

On 04/12/2023 at 19:31, Steven P. said:

 

Is Doctor Who ticking boxes? ###### with people? something else? 🤷‍♂️

 

They definitely are ticking boxes, the Star Beast episode proved that, even with RTD saying they didn't want Davros to be in a "wheelchair" in the small clip, yet in Star Beast they have a woman in a wheelchair, to be inclusive, and then make a crack at her when the guy reminds her she can't climb the stairs. Like...what?

The thing about inclusivity is, it doesn't match percentages in society, i.e. if you make a point of including as many minorities in a scene as possible, it's not realistic, more of a "Three men went into a bar" joke.

Edited December 5, 2023 by PsYcHoKiLLa

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

On 05/12/2023 at 03:38, PsYcHoKiLLa said:

They definitely are ticking boxes, the Star Beast episode proved that, even with RTD saying they didn't want Davros to be in a "wheelchair" in the small clip, yet in Star Beast they have a woman in a wheelchair, to be inclusive, and then make a crack at her when the guy reminds her she can't climb the stairs. Like...what?

The thing about inclusivity is, it doesn't match percentages in society, i.e. if you make a point of including as many minorities in a scene as possible, it's not realistic, more of a "Three men went into a bar" joke.

The military guy made a "crack" about her being in a wheelchair? Huh? I recall him apologizing to her there was stairs (which seemed unnecessary).

Davros in a wheelchair and the UNIT leader in a wheelchair are two different things. She is capable person using a wheelchair and the "original" Davros was a pathetic, crippled alien that was hell bent on universe genocide.

I do agree with the checkbox mentality of making sure there is a under represented group in almost every scene. At what point is it just shameless pandering?

Edited December 5, 2023 by Good Bot, Bad Bot

[DewThePDX]

On 05/12/2023 at 05:55, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

The military guy made a "crack" about her being in a wheelchair? Huh? I recall him apologizing to her there was stairs (which seemed unnecessary).

Davros in a wheelchair and the UNIT leader in a wheelchair are two different things. She is capable person using a wheelchair and the "original" Davros was a pathetic, crippled alien that was hell bent on universe genocide.

I do agree with the checkbox mentality of making sure there is a under represented group in almost every scene. At what point is it pandering?

She's not the UNIT leader. She's their scientific advisor, and that's the actresses real-life wheelchair that they dressed up slightly for the special. She has spina bifida.

 

The numbers of people I see claiming she's faking it are gross.

 

 

Also the apology was because he was walking her to the place and had forgotten she wouldn't be able to get up there until they got to the stairs. It was a simple apology for not thinking in advance.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 05/12/2023 at 13:55, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

the "original" Davros was a pathetic, crippled alien that was hell bent on universe genocide.

If there's one thing Davros never was, it's pathetic. He was a terrifying genius and was a powerful image to RL disabled folks that just because you're in a chair doesn't mean you're powerless. His being evil was very secondary to that image.

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

On 05/12/2023 at 09:39, DewThePDX said:

She's not the UNIT leader. She's their scientific advisor, and that's the actresses real-life wheelchair that they dressed up slightly for the special. She has spina bifida.

The numbers of people I see claiming she's faking it are gross.

Also the apology was because he was walking her to the place and had forgotten she wouldn't be able to get up there until they got to the stairs. It was a simple apology for not thinking in advance.

She was leading that operation wasn't she?

Not thinking in advance? That the soldiers didn't build an elevator on the fly in the middle of spaceship crash/landing?

 

On 05/12/2023 at 09:48, FloatingFatMan said:

If there's one thing Davros never was, it's pathetic. He was a terrifying genius and was a powerful image to RL disabled folks that just because you're in a chair doesn't mean you're powerless. His being evil was very secondary to that image.

He was portrayed as pathetic physically and no wheelchair users identify with him. Come on. LOL

[FloatingFatMan]

On 05/12/2023 at 15:19, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

He was portrayed as pathetic physically and no wheelchair users identify with him. Come on. LOL

Have you never seen Genesis of the Daleks? Or ANY of the classic Who episodes he featured in? Not once has he EVER appeared as "pathetic".  He may have physical limitations, but he always overcame those with technology, making him a deadly threat.  If you see a physical limitation as pathetic, well... that's YOUR interpretation.

Before claiming what a wheelchair user may think of a disabled fictional character, try asking a few, because a great many have been speaking out against RTD's change recently, and they're not amused.

[DewThePDX]

On 05/12/2023 at 07:19, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

Not thinking in advance? That the soldiers didn't build an elevator on the fly in the middle of spaceship crash/landing?

The soldier while leading her there didn't think about the whole stairs/wheelchair thing until they were at the foot of the stairs.

He was apologizing for not having thought about the obstacle in advance of leading her there.

 

It's an ongoing theme in the episode. People making mistaken assumptions. Some big and some little.

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

On 05/12/2023 at 10:26, FloatingFatMan said:

Have you never seen Genesis of the Daleks? Or ANY of the classic Who episodes he featured in? Not once has he EVER appeared as "pathetic".  He may have physical limitations, but he always overcame those with technology, making him a deadly threat.  If you see a physical limitation as pathetic, well... that's YOUR interpretation.

Before claiming what a wheelchair user may think of a disabled fictional character, try asking a few, because a great many have been speaking out against RTD's change recently, and they're not amused.

Yep all of them. Someone can't be pathetic yet powerful or a deadly threat? Trump was President but anyone with a half a brain can look at him and see the weak and pathetic loser that he is in fact. That is why he is a person who shouldn't be President. Please don't put words in my mouth. Davros was very much portrayed as having physical limitations but used his (evil) genius to make for it and more. A wheelchair user probaby doesn't want to be seen as having physical limitations that need to be over come so I can see the concern with Davros' traditional portrayal.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Good Bot, Bad Bot

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

On 05/12/2023 at 18:17, DewThePDX said:

The soldier while leading her there didn't think about the whole stairs/wheelchair thing until they were at the foot of the stairs.

He was apologizing for not having thought about the obstacle in advance of leading her there.

 

It's an ongoing theme in the episode. People making mistaken assumptions. Some big and some little.

Yes but it's not a real situation, that was WRITTEN in there.

Instead of having her arrive and recce the scene, knowing the scenario and the fact that she wouldn't have had access, so, instead, overseeing everything from a base van or something, therefore proving she's an intelligent and capable person, they have the soldiers turning round with a "sit this one out love" type statement, it's bad writing and could be offensive to wheelchair users.

Better writing would be to have the van nearby the Tardis when it arrived and the Doctor approaching it, her saying something along the lines of "I've investigated the scene and confirmed I won't have access so I'll be overseeing things from here. My men will go in and check it out.", they could also have had the HQ van have a chairlift.

I also REALLY don't understand RTD making out that Davros is, somehow, akin to a wheelchair user, or that they no longer wish him to have his traditional look, he has the same base unit as the Daleks themselves, are we to believe that they are also wheelchair users because, physically, they are little blobs in a metal case? At the risk of using a tired epithet... "It's political correctness gone mad".

[FloatingFatMan]

On 05/12/2023 at 18:54, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

Yep all of them. Someone can't be pathetic yet powerful or a deadly threat? Trump was President but anyone with a half a brain can look at him and see the weak and pathetic loser that he is in fact. That is why he is a person who shouldn't be President. Please don't put words in my mouth. Davros was very much portrayed as having physical limitations but used his (evil) genius to make for it and more. A wheelchair user probaby doesn't want to be seen as having physical limitations that need to be over come so I can see the concern with Davros' traditional portrayal.

Your own words were "He was portrayed as pathetic physically "  Do you really believe that someone with physical deformities or in a wheelchair is pathetic? Because that's how you're coming across, and it's not a good look...  Please, do explain how you're defining "pathetic physically" so we can understand your thinking here.

Oh, and in the interests of transparency, I should explain that due to an injury and illness, I acquired some physical limitations in the past few years that mean I now have to rely on external means to aid me in getting around.  Does that make me "pathetic physically"?

Edited December 6, 2023 by FloatingFatMan

[DewThePDX]

On 06/12/2023 at 00:24, PsYcHoKiLLa said:

Yes but it's not a real situation, that was WRITTEN in there.

Instead of having her arrive and recce the scene, knowing the scenario and the fact that she wouldn't have had access, so, instead, overseeing everything from a base van or something, therefore proving she's an intelligent and capable person, they have the soldiers turning round with a "sit this one out love" type statement, it's bad writing and could be offensive to wheelchair users.

Better writing would be to have the van nearby the Tardis when it arrived and the Doctor approaching it, her saying something along the lines of "I've investigated the scene and confirmed I won't have access so I'll be overseeing things from here. My men will go in and check it out.", they could also have had the HQ van have a chairlift.

You either didn't watch the episode or are being extremely disingenuous in your response.

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

On 06/12/2023 at 07:00, FloatingFatMan said:

Your own words were "He was portrayed as pathetic physically "  Do you really believe that someone with physical deformities or in a wheelchair is pathetic? Because that's how you're coming across, and it's not a good look...  Please, do explain how you're defining "pathetic physically" so we can understand your thinking here.

Oh, and in the interests of transparency, I should explain that due to an injury and illness, I acquired some physical limitations in the past few years that mean I now have to rely on external means to aid me in getting around.  Does that make me "pathetic physically"?

WTF? Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Yes, he was portrayed as being pathetic including physically and I didn't write the old Doctor Who Darvos shows LOL nor do I equate him to a real human wheelchair user but I can see why they might not care for how he was portrayed. We are done here and there no reason for you to reply to me again.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 06/12/2023 at 13:45, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

WTF? Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Yes, he was portrayed as being pathetic including physically and I didn't write the old Doctor Who Darvos shows LOL nor do I equate him to a real human wheelchair user but I can see why they might not care for how he was portrayed. We are done here and there no reason for you to reply to me again.

So, no definition for "pathetic physically" then?  Thought not.  You're right, we're definitely done here.  

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

On 06/12/2023 at 10:08, FloatingFatMan said:

So, no definition for "pathetic physically" then?  Thought not.  You're right, we're definitely done here.  

I am not playing this game anymore. Picking out two words and ignoring the rest of my words and context is not an argument.

[DewThePDX]

On 06/12/2023 at 07:47, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

I am not playing this game anymore. Picking out two words and ignoring the rest of my words and context is not an argument.

No, but it is one of their specialties. 😏