bbc [Official] Doctor Who Thread

[margrave]

https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/rtd-doctor-who-series-14-ratings-102279.htm

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

  On 13/06/2024 at 13:54, margrave said:

https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/rtd-doctor-who-series-14-ratings-102279.htm

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<rant> They are so concerned about a younger audience than why did we go thru Capaldi's Doctor and the Graham O'Brien companion with the 13th Doctor? LOL Why do they think need a gay Doctor and a trans character every other show with queer references non-stop to get a younger audience? I have been a Doctor Who fan since the Tom Baker era but rarely ever ran into someone that was a fan of the show until David Tennant.  I was running into people that were fans all the time and guess what? They were all younger and mostly female. It's almost like a Charismatic and younger, good looking Doctor that shows his emotions will pack in the younger ladies just fine even if white and straightish.

I am not against a different Doctor as of course it is a character that changes his appearance. I thought Jodi Winkter was great but the writing was terrible. I am not against trans characters as the Maestro was awesome. I loved Ncuti Gatwa in Sex Education (but the last season was horrible) but his Doctor is the same character but just more flamboyant/confidant but who also cries all the time. Good grief Charlie Brown! The thing that bugs me the most is why the hell is the sonic screwdriver not shaped like a screwdriver anymore but like a female vibration device? LOL

It feels like a different show and it's not doing anything for me so I removed it from my Disney+ watchlist. I never thought that would ever say not interested in Doctor Who anymore but that is where I am.</rant>

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 13/06/2024 at 14:58, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

It feels like a different show and it's not doing anything for me so I removed it from my Disney+ watchlist. I never thought that would ever say not interested in Doctor Who anymore but that is where I am.</rant>

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For me, as far as Disney goes, this was the final straw that broke the camels back.  I cancelled my Disney+ membership.  If they ever have anything worth watching in the future, I'll ask Captain Jack Sparrow to get it for me.

[margrave]

I always said family is just a liability

[margrave]

This season may not have been 100% but these last two episodes were fantastic!

 

Loved them. All kind of feels.

[+mram Subscriber²]

  On 13/06/2024 at 14:58, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

<rant> They are so concerned about a younger audience than why did we go thru Capaldi's Doctor and the Graham O'Brien companion with the 13th Doctor? LOL Why do they think need a gay Doctor and a trans character every other show with queer references non-stop to get a younger audience? I have been a Doctor Who fan since the Tom Baker era but rarely ever ran into someone that was a fan of the show until David Tennant.  I was running into people that were fans all the time and guess what? They were all younger and mostly female. It's almost like a Charismatic and younger, good looking Doctor that shows his emotions will pack in the younger ladies just fine even if white and straightish.

I am not against a different Doctor as of course it is a character that changes his appearance. I thought Jodi Winkter was great but the writing was terrible. I am not against trans characters as the Maestro was awesome. I loved Ncuti Gatwa in Sex Education (but the last season was horrible) but his Doctor is the same character but just more flamboyant/confidant but who also cries all the time. Good grief Charlie Brown! The thing that bugs me the most is why the hell is the sonic screwdriver not shaped like a screwdriver anymore but like a female vibration device? LOL

It feels like a different show and it's not doing anything for me so I removed it from my Disney+ watchlist. I never thought that would ever say not interested in Doctor Who anymore but that is where I am.</rant>

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Everything evolves.  

Writing is what it is.  If it were up to me I'd have a billion episodes written by Douglas Adams or Neil Gaiman.   Or both of them.  So I don't fault the acting for the writing.

Ncuti is really a nice breath of fresh air.  I have zero complaints.  He's engaging, he's charismatic, he's got the range and the rage but mostly brings the energy I like.  I can totally appreciate not all docs are for everyone.

We don't hold a show by catering to the aging audience.  I've seen zero disrepect to the Who that has come before.  Hell, to see Tom Baker (even as clips) was just cool.  But honestly some of the older stuff is just cringe.  The Sonic is just a tool, and it's always evolved.  Why did it need to extend?  Actually, how bout this - why exactly does it need to look like a screwdriver?  It's almost comical that it can do a lot of things but always looked like a glorified wand.  Jodie had a habit of whipping it out like it was a magic wand.  That flourish was completely odd to me.  It's just a tool.  But to expect it to never change is also like expecting the Tardis interior to never change.  In fact, it's practically iconic and lore that the sonic changes for every iteration. 

It is absolutely the same show.  It's silly pulpy scifi (and fantasy now to a degree).  Now with LessBrooding(tm). 

 

[branfont]

  On 22/06/2024 at 22:52, mram said:

Writing is what it is.  If it were up to me I'd have a billion episodes written by Douglas Adams.

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There's a rumour that "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" was supposed to be something for "Doctor Who" in the 1970s.

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 22/06/2024 at 22:52, mram said:

The Sonic is just a tool, and it's always evolved.  Why did it need to extend?  Actually, how bout this - why exactly does it need to look like a screwdriver? 

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Because it's not "a sonic", it's a sonic SCREWDRIVER.  It was always just meant to be a tool, but it just started to go all weird since Capaldi...

[+mram Subscriber²]

  On 26/06/2024 at 05:55, FloatingFatMan said:

Because it's not "a sonic", it's a sonic SCREWDRIVER.  It was always just meant to be a tool, but it just started to go all weird since Capaldi...

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Great point.  I mean we're literally debating what something should look like, when a time machine looks like a police call box and is different on the inside, so why can't a "screwdriver" look like anything it really wants to, especially since it's always been able to scan and report on stuff besides just opening things.  It always seemed odd to me that a "screwdriver" points at something and a glance from the Doctor always got some sort of "well this thingy-I-just-scanned is 6128 years old!"... when it has no screen.

So I mean, basically, we can't really blame Ncuti's Doctor for changing up the sonic screwdriver to something more relatable to what it actually does vs what we think it should look like.  I mean, seriously, Tennant literally made a force field with the sonic and projected a screen.  So, I guess I'm saying we shouldn't be too hung up on names. 

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 26/06/2024 at 07:00, mram said:

Great point.  I mean we're literally debating what something should look like, when a time machine looks like a police call box and is different on the inside, so why can't a "screwdriver" look like anything it really wants to, especially since it's always been able to scan and report on stuff besides just opening things.  It always seemed odd to me that a "screwdriver" points at something and a glance from the Doctor always got some sort of "well this thingy-I-just-scanned is 6128 years old!"... when it has no screen.

So I mean, basically, we can't really blame Ncuti's Doctor for changing up the sonic screwdriver to something more relatable to what it actually does vs what we think it should look like.  I mean, seriously, Tennant literally made a force field with the sonic and projected a screen.  So, I guess I'm saying we shouldn't be too hung up on names. 

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TBH, it's just a minor issue as all it really is, is a McGuffin.  A device that enables the writers to get themselves out of the hole their poor story telling skills got them in to in the first place.  If they're just going to call it a "Sonic" now, then it can look like anything, but if it's the original name, it should at least try to look a bit like a screwdriver, no?  

Anyway, Dr Who has far worse problems than just a simple badly named plot device, as demonstrated by the plummeting viewing figures.

 

[margrave]

[+mram Subscriber²]

  On 26/06/2024 at 11:50, FloatingFatMan said:

TBH, it's just a minor issue as all it really is, is a McGuffin.  A device that enables the writers to get themselves out of the hole their poor story telling skills got them in to in the first place.  If they're just going to call it a "Sonic" now, then it can look like anything, but if it's the original name, it should at least try to look a bit like a screwdriver, no?  

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So what do we call this strange orange alcoholic beverage, also called a screwdriver?  Should this lose its cup-like shape?  😇

Just sayin man -- names be names, and it's just a macguffin (aptly put).  But once it became sunglasses quite a few years ago, I think we lost the argument that it had to look anything like a rod with a glowy bit at the end (which also is not present in any "screwdriver")

 

  On 26/06/2024 at 11:50, FloatingFatMan said:

Anyway, Dr Who has far worse problems than just a simple badly named plot device, as demonstrated by the plummeting viewing figures.

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Not plummeting!

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 26/06/2024 at 16:00, mram said:

So what do we call this strange orange alcoholic beverage, also called a screwdriver?  Should this lose its cup-like shape?  😇

Just sayin man -- names be names, and it's just a macguffin (aptly put).  But once it became sunglasses quite a few years ago, I think we lost the argument that it had to look anything like a rod with a glowy bit at the end (which also is not present in any "screwdriver")

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I did say it'd started going weird since Capaldi...

 

  On 26/06/2024 at 16:00, mram said:

Not plummeting!

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Sorry, but utterly plummeting...

 

It's at it's lowest level in 32 years.  Once upon a time, Who used to command audiences of 15+ million per episode...

https://m.imdb.com/news/ni62755417/

So it's not all the fault of the latest season, it's been going downhill for a while, but the current series is the worst so far when it comes to ratings...

I'll grant you that shows should reflect the mores of the era they're made in, but what's the point of catering to modern societal sensibilities when people don't want to watch it? All you do is lose your audience, and Gatwa's been doing an especially good job of alienating the audience with his idiotic comments...

Just my opinion mind, but an actors job is to do the role they're hired too, not to lecture people and tell them to go outside and touch grass if they don't like his portrayal.  Because they will do exactly that, and have.

 

 

[Xenon]

Doctor Who has become a love hate show for me. The last couple of doctors for me have had a lot of problems. 

Peter Capaldi - I really was not a fan of him. Out of the episodes I watched of his (about 3/4) I never was like wow that was a really good story.

Jodie Whittaker - Loved her! But she has had the worst scripts in years. I watched all of her episodes. I really wasted my time with that. 

David Tennant (14th doctor) - Its David Tennant. The return of Donna was great. But the end of his small run was really stupid. 

Ncuti Gatwa - I kind of like him. But the leak before the season started that Ruby Sunday character was gonna leave at the end of the season kind of turned me off and once again the scripts were meh, although the last couple were good. 

 

The next doctor should finally be a ginger. 

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 26/06/2024 at 18:35, Xenon said:

The next doctor should finally be a ginger. 

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I agree, but I think they've kinda forgotten about that gag...  

[Steven P. Administrators]

Who has become yet another vehicle out of Hollyweird to force feed the woke nonsense destroying yet another show I used to love watching. Does he have to cry every episode? Oh, wait a minute Hollyweird is telling us that it's okay for men to cry, thanks for the lesson TV! /s

The other show I couldn't stand to watch, was ST: Discovery and I love Trek!

I've been rewatching a lot of shows from the 70's and 80's like The Fall Guy, Star Trek The Next Generation, The New Avengers and I plan to start rewatching The Muppets Show. Back when TV didn't try to force feed you social narratives from minority groups every 5 minutes of every episode.

There are many exceptions, some great TV I watched recently is Them and Outer Range on Amazon Prime, and I rather enjoyed NOS4A2.

[margrave]

/Necro_post

 

I think this looks great!

[+Dick Montage Subscriber²]

  On 26/06/2024 at 17:49, FloatingFatMan said:

Once upon a time, Who used to command audiences of 15+ million per episode

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Once upon a time there were just 3 channels and you watched what was on.  NOTHING commands 15m+ per episode.  3.5m is still GREAT by today's numbers for same day viewing.  The rhetoric that it's tanking is a story that's pushed.

For what it's worth, I've not found any of it particularly "woke" (whatever that is meant to mean).  Even the episode where everyone was white and you don't realise it's racism until the end - it had a point, it had a story, it was astonishingly well conveyed.  If someone has an issue with things like that then it is really more their issue than anything.  Sure, if it's CONSTANT then yeah, you can argue the purpose of the show is now nothing more, but it's just not - unless you're deliberately going looking for it.

And the new doctor - my lord he's good.  He is so enjoyable to just have on screen!

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 25/03/2025 at 09:33, Dick Montage said:

Once upon a time there were just 3 channels and you watched what was on.  NOTHING commands 15m+ per episode.  3.5m is still GREAT by today's numbers for same day viewing.  The rhetoric that it's tanking is a story that's pushed.

For what it's worth, I've not found any of it particularly "woke" (whatever that is meant to mean).  Even the episode where everyone was white and you don't realise it's racism until the end - it had a point, it had a story, it was astonishingly well conveyed.  If someone has an issue with things like that then it is really more their issue than anything.  Sure, if it's CONSTANT then yeah, you can argue the purpose of the show is now nothing more, but it's just not - unless you're deliberately going looking for it.

And the new doctor - my lord he's good.  He is so enjoyable to just have on screen!

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I haven't gone off Dr Who for anything "woke" related.  I've gone off it because of the bloody dreadful writing and utter disrespect for the fanbase for the last few years, and it's only gotten worse since Disney stuck their oar in.

And that new Doctor of yours is so good that he's already gone...

[+Dick Montage Subscriber²]

  On 25/03/2025 at 09:38, FloatingFatMan said:

bloody dreadful writing

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Admittedly, yes.  There have been some good "plots" that have suffered not-so-great storytelling and dialogue!

  On 25/03/2025 at 09:38, FloatingFatMan said:

utter disrespect for the fanbase

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Oh grow up!  Who has ALWAYS done exactly as it wished.  The dark era when it was predominantly radio plays created this mystique around the fanbase being somehow "special" - never was, never will be - the "fan base" is just consumers - some will stay, some will leave, some will join - always been the way.

  On 25/03/2025 at 09:38, FloatingFatMan said:

And that new Doctor of yours is so good that he's already gone...

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"Of mine"?  So he is not "yours"?  But you're so vocally protective of the franchise, telling us all how it "should" be!  No surprise that with such a vocally toxic  minority of it's "fan base" he may be considering his future.  But please, feel free to let me know of a verified source confirming his departure, as it's all conjecture at this point.

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 09:38, FloatingFatMan said:

it's only gotten worse since Disney stuck their oar in

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Disney have a distribution deal for a TV show produced by Bad Wolf.  They do not have creative control.

Look, I know you're struggling with a show that has passed you by, but come on man...  "Not my Star Trek", "Not my Doctor Who" - no, they aren't, and yet you're still watching just so you can be upset and complain?  There have been episodes and arcs I found a bit meh, but it's not upsetting me to the level you seem to be.  Find shows you currently like and enjoy them?

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 25/03/2025 at 11:29, Dick Montage said:

Look, I know you're struggling with a show that has passed you by, but come on man...  "Not my Star Trek", "Not my Doctor Who" - no, they aren't, and yet you're still watching just so you can be upset and complain?  There have been episodes and arcs I found a bit meh, but it's not upsetting me to the level you seem to be.  Find shows you currently like and enjoy them?

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Actually no, I'm not "still watching", at all.  I haven't properly watched Who since halfway through Jodie's tenure when it became clear that the writing wasn't going to get any better.  Since then I've watched the Timeless Child purely after hearing how awful it was, and they were right, and I watched the 3 specials which is when I just gave up completely.

As for Trek,  I hated Discovery and quit watching that after season 3, and I didn't like the first 2 seasons of Picard.  I have it one more try for season 3 and they pulled it out of the fire finally.  SNW has been up and down, but in general, it's been far FAR better than Discovery and Picard; perhaps because they're trying to do right by the show at last?

And yes, I consider them MY shows on the grounds that they're what I grew up with; much like many people consider their favourite football team "Their" team.  I doesn't mean they or I claim actual OWNERSHIP of them, and you know that full well.

Oh, and Disney not having creative control? Sure, keep telling yourself that...   The Empire of the Mouse surrenders nothing.

[+Dick Montage Subscriber²]

  On 25/03/2025 at 11:52, FloatingFatMan said:

I watched the 3 specials which is when I just gave up completely.

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They were terrible - I agree.  I have (for years)  found that Who is at it's worst as a special - they feel (for whatever this means) "more BBC" than any other episode.

  On 25/03/2025 at 11:52, FloatingFatMan said:

As for Trek,  I hated Discovery and quit watching that after season 3, and I didn't like the first 2 seasons of Picard.  I have it one more try for season 3 and they pulled it out of the fire finally.  SNW has been up and down, but in general, it's been far FAR better than Discovery and Picard; perhaps because they're trying to do right by the show at last?

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So by your own comments, you chose to watch 5 series of shows you disliked.  That feels like you're your own worst enemy there.  SNW is (IMO) peak new Trek, but - it begat that S31 "movie" so don't hold your breath.

  On 25/03/2025 at 11:52, FloatingFatMan said:

I consider them MY shows on the grounds that they're what I grew up with; much like many people consider their favourite football team "Their" team

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Tribalism is hardly a good thing?

  On 25/03/2025 at 11:52, FloatingFatMan said:

I doesn't mean they or I claim actual OWNERSHIP of them

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You seem to want to apply YOUR rules as to how they can use props, setpieces, characters.

  On 25/03/2025 at 11:52, FloatingFatMan said:

Oh, and Disney not having creative control? Sure, keep telling yourself that..

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Awaiting that source that legitimately shows otherwise.

FYI - I am not "arguing" with you, we're debating here as we often do.  You know when you post something that it's open to comment and response - as do I - so just so that we're clear, I don't 100% disagree with your points - and am welcoming and enjoying this back and forth.  I know that Dune is something close to your heart, and I have both enjoyed and disliked the various versions of that - and would equally be as involved in such a discussion.

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:06, Dick Montage said:

So by your own comments, you chose to watch 5 series of shows you disliked.  That feels like you're your own worst enemy there.  SNW is (IMO) peak new Trek, but - it begat that S31 "movie" so don't hold your breath.

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Some say hope is eternal, but eventually, hopelessness exists...  

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:06, Dick Montage said:

Tribalism is hardly a good thing?

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Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no, it depends on how you feel I guess?  Am I upset about the changes I don't like? Sure, but that's because I love the show.  Am I so upset that I'm going to go out and protest? Not really.  I'll complain, I'll be sad, and the finally, I'll move on.

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:06, Dick Montage said:

You seem to want to apply YOUR rules as to how they can use props, setpieces, characters.

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I don't care about the props, but do you really feel that the "Timeless Child" took the lore of the Timelords and The Doctor in a good direction?  I sure as hell don't...

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:06, Dick Montage said:

Awaiting that source that legitimately shows otherwise.

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All you have to do is look at every single IP Disney have gotten involved with, and how they've (de)volved...

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:06, Dick Montage said:

FYI - I am not "arguing" with you, we're debating here as we often do.  You know when you post something that it's open to comment and response - as do I - so just so that we're clear, I don't 100% disagree with your points - and am welcoming and enjoying this back and forth.  I know that Dune is something close to your heart, and I have both enjoyed and disliked the various versions of that - and would equally be as involved in such a discussion.

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I enjoy the discourse too, so don't feel I'm angry at YOU!   Dune is close to my heart yes, Frank Herbert was a genius writer (do check out his non-Dune stuff!) but remember that I've been watching Doctor Who for my entire LIFE... My earliest memory of it is being terrified as I saw the Doctor (Pertwee) with a giant spider on his back and then die & regenerate in 1974 in his last episode... That kind of thing has an effect on a young mind, you know!  I accept things have to change and evolve to meet the audience, and for the most part have enjoyed the return of "New Who" even though I didn't like when they turned the Master into a raving lunatic and thought "Missy" would have been better as The Rani, but some things are a step too far, and the Timeless Child was, for me, that step.

I don't care about the accusations of  "woke", I don't care about the gender changing and other stuff. I DO care about terrible writing, retconning major lore, and worst of all? Throwing romance and emotional vulnerability at the Doctor.  The Doctor is not a softy, the Doctor is not a lover, the Doctor doesn't break down and weep at little things.  The Doctor is the person who protects you and makes the monsters go away.

[+Dick Montage Subscriber²]

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:21, FloatingFatMan said:

Some say hope is eternal, but eventually, hopelessness exists...

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I think the Trek franchise (OK, let's move this elsewhere if it annoys people) suffers the same as Star Wars.  Factions.  There are some people concerned with creating content for a platform, there are some people who have decent stories to tell and I will always accept there are some people who are using a platform for an agenda.  The balance is currently off.

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:21, FloatingFatMan said:

Sure, but that's because I love the show

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Do you though?  Or do you love what it was?  As they are wholly different now.  It has had at least two documented "reboots" (of sorts) in the last 20 years.  Heck, take that weird 90s TV movie, that's another reboot (IMO).  The original run of Who is (IMO)  1963-1989, and man - that's not bad going.  Was it always well received?  Absolutely not (Twin Dilemma, I'm looking at you).  What we got in 2005 was (IMO) something new that was sorta a continuation but sorta not.  Maybe that's the problem - and I totally get that... Are you a reboot or a continuation - you really can't chop and change because it's just confusing.  We adults are obviously more aware of "canon" than their current target audience however, so I have just let it go and accepted "meh, ok whatever".

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:21, FloatingFatMan said:

do you really feel that the "Timeless Child" took the lore of the Timelords and The Doctor in a good direction?

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No, it was abysmal.  And not just from the stance of "is it good to the story of the franchise", it was just dirge and an absolute downgrade for The Master!

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:21, FloatingFatMan said:

All you have to do is look at every single IP Disney have gotten involved with, and how they've (de)volved..

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Right, let's dissect this.  Star Wars is the obvious go-to here... See my above comment on factions, that holds true here.  Specifically: Disney+ (content for a platform) and Kathleen Kennedy (pushing an agenda)!  But then there's Filoni (OK, he pre-dates Disney involvement but he has been given a lot of scope to tell his stories), Favreau... Rogue One, Andor, Mandalorian, Bad Batch, final seasons of Clone Wars, they've output some great stuff.

Then Marvel... The first movie produced by Disney was The Avengers and while there've been some sloppy movies and shows (certainly post Endgame), I feel they are addressing this.  And the reason?  Predominantly content for content's sake.  D+ realistically launched way too soon with insufficient content - then we have that awkward pandemic situation, so cinemas were shut - they over-stretched their goals to fill D+.  And it wasn't for the better!  But look at all the great stuff that was put out by Disney - Endgame, Black Panther, Ragnarok, Winter Soldier, Civil War.  And those are items that Disney has control over, again Disney has no creative control over Who.  Their deal is with BBC to start with, not Bad Wolf.  I'd offer that the only influence they have had are
(1) increased funding - which can be a poison chalice leading to self indulgent production admittedly
(2) expanded audiences - which it's only right for production to consider

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:21, FloatingFatMan said:

remember that I've been watching Doctor Who for my entire LIFE

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Oh same.  I was terrified of some episodes, heck - they still make me uneasy.  The current Master (is he?  I dunno) is abysmal and literally personifies everything the Master was not.  I get you on that.  And yeah, Missy would have served a great purpose as the Rani, but I also like how they used them to address the whole "who says?" gender thing without directly affecting The Doctor.

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 12:21, FloatingFatMan said:

The Doctor is not a softy, the Doctor is not a lover, the Doctor doesn't break down and weep at little things.  The Doctor is the person who protects you and makes the monsters go away.

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Surely it's a character point that the Doctor evolves, has spent so much time around humanity that he has a fondness towards it and has been affected by it.  That's LITERALLY the purpose of Rose?

And as for not caring about changes - look, I always go back to this:  When Spielberg and Dreamworks first announced a new Transformers movie in 200(x) - at Comicon, they parked up a Red Freightliner truck with a grey trailer, with a large black tarp covering it.  It was a G1 Optimus Prime through and through.  Then the movie was released and we got the Peterbilt truck, with flame motifs.  It's not wrong at all to look at the difference and go "huh - that's not what I remember", and even moreso when they are quite so deliberately trading upon nostalgia to go "huh - that's not they sold us".  Trucks, races, genders, etc - there is nothing wrong per-se with disliking change.  But at that point I just step back and thing "OK, maybe it's not for me then" and make a decision as to whether it matters enough for me to carry on with it or not.  Starbuck being female was met with so much fan backlash - and then by the end of the 1st season, she was so much more Starbuck than Dirk Benedict ever was.  But yeah, a change needs to be earned - sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't - and I feel with Who, it's maybe 50/50.  Ncuti is literally excellent for the modern Doctor, as was Capaldi for what should have been a less modern doctor, and I'd even say that Whittaker could have been - but they are let down by bipolar writing.  Heck, John Hurt's "War Doctor" was interesting as an idea until he absolutely was not - because they introduce one type of character, then feel this need to give them stupid jokes!