kak Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Because at CES they are talking about it? XStreamHD is in every news. I'm sure everybody talking about it is an HD DVD fan. LOL.Not everything is about format wars. Now we can't even talk about things that are awesomely great and actually better then any optical media? God forbid there's something better then Blu-Ray. Calm down. From the sites I've been reading, it seems to be quite the trend. Skip blu, go digital download. The whole "we'll show them!" mentality. Also, this thread is pertaining to optical media. Until we get the infrastructure to do something like digital downloads or streamed copies, its an irrelevant topic. Blu and HD-DVD are here and now. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Depends which one..there are some movies on both Blu-Ray and HD DVD that are being sold for $19.99 and $18.95. HD DVD has a bit more of those but they are available for both. Usually the cheaper BDs will be BD25gb ones. Your probably right, but i just saw a heap load of "Newer titles", they are in HD, good enough for me :laugh: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Because at CES they are talking about it? XStreamHD is in every news. I'm sure everybody talking about it is an HD DVD fan. LOL.Not everything is about format wars. Now we can't even talk about things that are awesomely great and actually better then any optical media? God forbid there's something better then Blu-Ray. Calm down. They can't make them. The data layer is written at 0.1 mm.. There's no way you can resurface a disc so close. Makes sense? the issue I have with services like this is that they are wide open to various drm, they would be able to know, what you've downloaded, times you watched it etc etc and yes, it makes sense hopefully joe public don't use their current repair devices :huh: thinking its'll be ok Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCheese Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 The 360 also reports everything you do to MS (Else the gamercard stuff wouldn't work) so the PS3 doing the same thing isn't really that amazing. The other DRM stuff is the reason why some studio's supported BD so I can live with that.... Its nowhere near as bad as the DRM will be if downloads ever take off. Also isn't the CD/DVD repair thing only useful X amount of times? Eventually you'll reach the data layer and then your screwed. With any luck the anti mark stuff on BD will balance out with that... From the sites I've been reading, it seems to be quite the trend. yeah some HD-DVD supporters on avs are now saying its the best thing since sliced bread, despite them criticising it days before. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 come to think of it, the Wii has Connect24 too, and that records in your calender how long you played for. as DrCheese says, I think a large section of hddvd supporters are simply anti-sony, so they'll support anything against them. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbba Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Just noticed around 3 of my local retail stores had started carrying Blu-ray movies, to my surprise they were the same or even cheaper than regular DVD's here in Denmark.I asked if they were on sale, he said that was the normal price of Blu-ray discs. So where did all this "Blu-ray is more expensive" come from? I think it comes from the players not the discs being more expensive. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Caro Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Obviously, since BD and HD-DVD use the same business model, the two plus DVD will have to be up-to-date to compete with alternative solutions such as digital downloads. Funny that digital video downloads have come out of nowhere now that HD-DVD. For some people it is either HD-DVD, "your friend and neighbor", or nothing. I personally don't care which one wins, as both have the 1080p stream I want. Of course, since I have BD, and there hasn't been a better scenario for BD to win, I want BD to win. But I wouldn't have been utterly disappointed if BD lost. I knew the risks, I didnt spend that much, and neither my movies nor my ps3 would magically stop working. I have a 3mb connection, I hate standard definition content, so there's no chance in hell digital downloads are for me. Maybe for SD there is, but that's a battle DVD has to be fight if it wants to survive. Right now, we don't have the bandwidth, or the storage to deliver the quality hd-dvd and blu-ray have to offer. And they know it, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered in making them available. If, by any chance, they opt to deliver HD media using the internet, where do you think people is most likely to store them? A 1TB hard drive won't cut it if all movies are around 25-30 gb. So optical media is still needed in one way or another. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaPrime Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 When I buy a movie, I don't want just a data file tied to a single account/machine, I want the actual disc(s) and case with boxart, etc. I know some other people feel the same way. Also, a new Michael Bay quote: http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/showt...10195#post10195 (lol) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbcarey Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 From the sites I've been reading, it seems to be quite the trend. Skip blu, go digital download. The whole "we'll show them!" mentality. And that doesn't seem fairly logical to you? Fanboyism aside, any adopters who were eager enough to purchase HD-DVD players over the past few months based upon economic viability rather than pre-conceived support of either optical format -- and there were plenty, seeing as the amount of units sold jumped from about 750,000 in October to 1,000,000 at the end of December -- are going to be sorely disappointed by the HD-DVD format becoming obsolete. Yes, they took a risk, and perhaps they were aware of it; however, this doesn't mean they're going to rush out to spend another few hundred on a rival format that, in all honesty, is currently only comparable at best at the same price point. Rather than being eager to support another HD optical format, it seems pretty logical they'd hope for a low-cost delivery model like IPTV or digital download. It's nothing to do with sour grapes, and far more to do with not having the desire to break the bank attempting to regain the HD library in which they believed they'd already invested. Irrespective of who is at fault for this outcome, there are a lot of people who feel massively disappointed by their decision to support HD optical media at this point in the game. It will take awhile until they are willing to support it again, I imagine. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smigit Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 (edited) The 360 also reports everything you do to MS (Else the gamercard stuff wouldn't work) so the PS3 doing the same thing isn't really that amazing. The other DRM stuff is the reason why some studio's supported BD so I can live with that.... Its nowhere near as bad as the DRM will be if downloads ever take off. Are you totally sure about this as its just as likely that the only data that gets sent is game data when you are actually logged into a Live Profile. What about if your not logged in? What about watching movies? Somehow I dont think MS is infact tracking everything as it would be a huge privacy concern and the backlash would be immense. I'd say it's here say and only trivial game info relating to your immediate profile is being sent. edit: As for DRM'd movies, I wouldnt be to sure. ATM there seems to be a push for music stores to move away from DRM and the fact companies supported HD-DVD despite the region locking may further suggest that many companies aren't relying as much on DRM as they were a year or two ago. Edited January 9, 2008 by Smigit Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCheese Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 It def reports how long you've been playing a certain game, this is proved by some achievements for dead or alive 4 (You get achievements based on time played) and they also produce stats every month on major nelsons site about games played. Not sure about movies, I don't know if your gamertag info changes to "watching a movie" or something when you do, but I doubt its that hard. It must record something when your not logged in as any achievements you earn when your offline get uploaded when you go back online. Its no different to stores using "loyalty" cards to work out what customers buy. Its not fantastic tho that your stuff is tracked Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589122623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 It def reports how long you've been playing a certain game, this is proved by some achievements for dead or alive 4 (You get achievements based on time played) and they also produce stats every month on major nelsons site about games played. Not sure about movies, I don't know if your gamertag info changes to "watching a movie" or something when you do, but I doubt its that hard.It must record something when your not logged in as any achievements you earn when your offline get uploaded when you go back online. Its no different to stores using "loyalty" cards to work out what customers buy. Its not fantastic tho that your stuff is tracked The difference DrCheese is that Xbox 360 sends only relevant information for game tracking and maybe their Xbox Live marketplace along with some checking whether or not you hacked the Xbox 360. Microsoft pretty much does this anonymously but ties certain things to your Xbox LIve account so they can cancel it if you tempered with the console itself to allow hacks. PS3 on the other hand tracks EVERYTHING.. if sends or allows them to recieve every bit of information from what you connect the playstation, external hard drives, DNLA devices (computers), USB devices etc etc. It's not just what you do on PSN store only or what games you play. I wouldn't even have a problem with that. The fact that it can snoop onto anything that's connected on my network is disturbing. I'm sorry but XBox 360 does not do this. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 The difference DrCheese is that Xbox 360 sends only relevant information for game tracking and maybe their Xbox Live marketplace along with some checking whether or not you hacked the Xbox 360. Microsoft pretty much does this anonymously but ties certain things to your Xbox LIve account so they can cancel it if you tempered with the console itself to allow hacks.PS3 on the other hand tracks EVERYTHING.. if sends or allows them to recieve every bit of information from what you connect the playstation, external hard drives, DNLA devices (computers), USB devices etc etc. It's not just what you do on PSN store only or what games you play. I wouldn't even have a problem with that. The fact that it can snoop onto anything that's connected on my network is disturbing. I'm sorry but XBox 360 does not do this. sources? playing on my ps3 right now and there is no network traffic... Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamhook Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 PS3 on the other hand tracks EVERYTHING.. if sends or allows them to recieve every bit of information from what you connect the playstation, external hard drives, DNLA devices (computers), USB devices etc etc. It's not just what you do on PSN store only or what games you play. I wouldn't even have a problem with that. The fact that it can snoop onto anything that's connected on my network is disturbing. I'm sorry but XBox 360 does not do this.Do you have proof of that? I find that extremely hard to believe. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCheese Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 PS3 on the other hand tracks EVERYTHING.. if sends or allows them to recieve every bit of information from what you connect the playstation, external hard drives, DNLA devices (computers), USB devices etc etc. It's not just what you do on PSN store only or what games you play. I wouldn't even have a problem with that. The fact that it can snoop onto anything that's connected on my network is disturbing. I'm sorry but XBox 360 does not do this. I'm sorry what? Got any sources for that? I'm tempted to load up etheral to look for myself... This is all I've found online so far but it doesn't mention anything near what you've said, nor is it any worse than what other companies do. http://www.boston.com/business/technology/...rack_user_data/ Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGS4-SS Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 PS3 on the other hand tracks EVERYTHING.. if sends or allows them to recieve every bit of information from what you connect the playstation, external hard drives, DNLA devices (computers), USB devices etc etc. It's not just what you do on PSN store only or what games you play. I wouldn't even have a problem with that. The fact that it can snoop onto anything that's connected on my network is disturbing. I'm sorry but XBox 360 does not do this. You're becoming pretty desperate now. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 can you also prove that the x360 don't? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Do you have proof of that? I find that extremely hard to believe. FROM PS3 EULA: Collection of Non-Personally Identifying Information Through PSN SCEA may also collect information such as your IP address, IP address-related information, network configurations, your network devices, peripherals, USB devices, plug-ins and monitors, information from your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit and information about how you use PSN and your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit, including, for example, downloads, game activity (including game title name and length of play), forum postings, game profile, rankings and presence on Friends list or block list (collectively, ?passive information?). This type of information will be collected even for offline gameplay. SCEA may also place cookies on your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit?s hard drive. Cookies are bits of electronic information that keep records of the places you have visited on PSN and to keep track of your purchases on PSN. We may use your personally identifying information and records for defense in a lawsuit, investigation or other action if your personally identifying information, records or profiles are relevant to the lawsuit, investigation or action. We may also disclose your personally identifying information to other Sony Computer Entertainment companies, Sony affiliates and certain third parties that we have engaged to assist us in providing the PSN service to you, including facilitating online game services, including customer services, or maintaining our database records. This includes, but is not limited to, fulfillment houses, transaction managers, credit card services, online network services and data management companies. can you also prove that the x360 don't? No, as it is not mentioned in their EULA. If it's not mentioned like Sony one then they can't do or they'll be sued. In Microsoft one they only say that they will use your Xbox Live account information in order to prevent any tempering and to improve the service as to hot it works. That's not a huge problem for me. I'm fine with that. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 FROM PS3 EULA:No, as it is not mentioned in their EULA. If it's not mentioned like Sony one then they can't do or they'll be sued. In Microsoft one they only say that they will use your Xbox Live account information in order to prevent any tempering and to improve the service as to hot it works. That's not a huge problem for me. I'm fine with that. http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/xbox.aspx Note that this page is a supplement to the Microsoft Online Privacy Statement. In order to understand the data collection and use practices relevant for a particular site or service, you should read both the Microsoft Online Privacy Statement and any applicable supplement.Xbox LIVE, Games for Windows - LIVE and Xbox.com Privacy Supplement last updated: March 2007 Gamertags and Nicknames When you create a LIVE account for use with Xbox or Games for Windows, you will be asked to create a gamertag. You also may be allowed to pick separate nicknames to use in-game. These gamertags and nicknames will be shown to other players when you are signed in to the LIVE service for use with Xbox or Games for Windows (the “Service”) and may be displayed with your game stats and presence status as displayed in-game, via Windows Live Messenger and/or on the Web. Since these names may be publicly displayed, you should not use your personal information when creating them. You may also have the opportunity to add attachments such as of photos, graphics, text, or audio to your stats information. If you do this, those attachments will be able to be viewed or heard by other users of the service. Service Statistics We may collect information about your usage of the Service. This information can include such activities as: times you sign-in to and sign-off from the Service; games that you have played on the Service; content you purchase on the Service; and game score statistics. If you use an Xbox 360 console that includes a storage device (hard drive or memory unit), and if you play offline or have never signed-in to the Service, usage data will be stored on the storage device of your Xbox console and sent to Microsoft the next time you sign in to the Service. However, in the Xbox LIVE Dashboard, you can delete this information from your storage device prior to connecting to the Service, or block it from being displayed to other users. When your Xbox is connected to the Internet, Microsoft is able to identify which Xbox console and which version of the Xbox Dashboard you are currently using. In addition, when accessing the Service via a personal computer, Microsoft will collect information about the LIVE software version you are using. This information is used specifically for the purpose of alerting Microsoft to provide you with appropriate auto-updates and to protect the security of the Service. Anti-Cheating In order to create a fair gaming experience for all users by detecting cheating, Microsoft will periodically collect the following information about your computer when you sign on to the Service via a personal computer for Games for Windows: your IP address, operating system and LIVE software version and other non-personally identifiable operating system and driver state information. In addition, Microsoft may also collect information about other software running on your computer that, based on Microsoft’s analysis, is suspected to be software used for cheating and cheat reports generated by the LIVE software consisting of identification of suspected cheating software, your LIVE-enabled game software’s product key, network performance data associated with your use of the Service and between you and other users of LIVE-enabled games, and crash information about the LIVE software. Microsoft will use this information to protect the security of the Service and may take enforcement action against your LIVE account; however, we will not use this information in any way which disables any other software running on your computer Online Presence If you are a subscriber of the Service, your gamertag, nicknames and statistics such as high scores will be visible to other subscribers through the Service, via Windows Live Messenger and on the Xbox.com website. Other data such as your gamer picture, motto, country, additional statistics, such as the games you play, and your online presence, may be available to other subscribers; however you can opt-out of sharing this data, or limit it to those on your friends list. If you use Xbox 360 or your personal computer, your gamertag will be automatically linked with your authentication network credentials so that when you sign into Xbox.com, Bungie.net, or other related gaming sites, your experience will be personalized and you will have access to additional features. If you use the original Xbox, you will have the opportunity to manually link your gamertag to your authentication network credentials in the My Xbox section of the website. The linkage between your gamertag and Windows LIVE ID may be also shared with 3rd party game sites in order for those sites to provide you with a personalized experience when you sign in. Accessing your Information Whether you access the Service from an Xbox console or via your personal computer, you can view or edit your personal information, or change your contact and data sharing preferences, at any time on the My Xbox page on Xbox.com. You may also update your information by selecting Privacy Settings under Edit Gamer Profile for an Xbox 360, or selecting the Info Sharing option in Account Management for the Original Xbox LIVE Dashboard. You can cancel your account to the Service by calling Customer Support at 1-800-4MY-XBOX. Family Settings and Parental Consent If you have children that use the Service, you can choose to set up child accounts during account creation using the Family Settings features. Children's usage information, such as games played, download history, and friends list, may be made available to the owner of the parent account associated with the child. Owners of the associated parent accounts can use the default settings for child accounts or can customize the level of restrictions for each child account. Children under the age of 13 cannot create an account for the Service without parental consent. Account creation, which enables the use of the Service and certain Xbox.com features, will require the owner of the associated parent account to consent to the collection of information about the child. This will involve the collection and verification of a credit card number in order to help determine that the owner of that parent account is an adult. Under Family Settings in the Xbox LIVE Dashboard or via Xbox.com for the personal computer, parents can change or revoke the consent choices previously made, and review, edit or request the deletion of their children's personal information. We will not knowingly ask children under the age of 13 to provide more information than is reasonably necessary to provide our services. If we change this privacy statement in a way that expands the collection, use or disclosure of a child's personal information for which the parent has previously consented, the parent will be notified and we will obtain the parent's additional consent prior to implementing the change with respect to that child. ? 2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. wheres my tin hat? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 (edited) http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/xbox.aspxwheres my tin hat? And you have proved what exactly? Can you please restrain from provoking me by calling completely ridiculous statements. It's ok if you don't understand the consequences of each one of these EULAs. With XBox Live it doesn't matter.. what Microsoft is refering to is they will be monitoring everything you do with in regards to their SERVICE, meaning Xbox Live. I don't have a problem them seeing what I download from Xbox Live marketplace or what games I played. That's not an issue. Read again what PS3 does and what Xbox does and try to open your eyes to what Sony is allowing themselves through the EULA. And please, there's no need to quote the whole EULA, just post what you think is relevant from it in quotes. So people can narrow down on the actual meaning of two without a bunch of text. Edited January 9, 2008 by Boz Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 If you use an Xbox 360 console that includes a storage device (hard drive or memory unit), and if you play offline or have never signed-in to the Service, usage data will be stored on the storage device of your Xbox console and sent to Microsoft the next time you sign in to the Service. no, its pretty much the same as sonys policy, just worded different. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctebah Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 And please, there's no need to quote the whole EULA, just post what you think is relevant from it in quotes. So people can narrow down on the actual meaning of two without a bunch of text. he did a good job of posting the whole eula and bolding what he thinks is neccessary. and who the hell are you to tell him what he should post and what not to post? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 no, its pretty much the same as sonys policy, just worded different. NO it's not.. are you that ignorant? First of all hard drive and Xbox Live service ARE CLOSED. They don't go snoop on external devices you connect to. What the hell are you talking about. If you use an Xbox 360 console that includes a storage device (hard drive or memory unit), and if you play offline or have never signed-in to the Service, usage data will be stored on the storage device of your Xbox console and sent to Microsoft the next time you sign in to the Service. SCEA may also collect information such as your IP address, IP address-related information, network configurations, your network devices, peripherals, USB devices, plug-ins and monitors, information from your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit and information about how you use PSN and your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit, including, for example, downloads, game activity (including game title name and length of play), forum postings, game profile, rankings and presence on Friends list or block list (collectively, ?passive information?). How are the two the same. Are you kidding me? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 the term 'usage data' is a pretty broad term. that can mean any kind of usage. usage can mean: turning it on playing a game playing a dvd loading a USB device I could go on Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huleboeren Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Collection of Non-Personally Identifying Information Through PSNSCEA may also collect information such as your IP address, IP address-related information, network configurations, your network devices, peripherals, USB devices, plug-ins and monitors, information from your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit and information about how you use PSN and your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit, including, for example, downloads, game activity (including game title name and length of play), forum postings, game profile, rankings and presence on Friends list or block list (collectively, ?passive information?). This type of information will be collected even for offline gameplay. SCEA may also place cookies on your PLAYSTATION?3 computer entertainment system unit?s hard drive. Cookies are bits of electronic information that keep records of the places you have visited on PSN and to keep track of your purchases on PSN. Sounds more like they want to improve the PS3 based on info they get from user PS3s Like the support for Epson printer all of a sudden - network devices, preipherals But do you really care if they collect these kin:huh:fo? :huh: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/612021-paramount-in-hd-dvd-blow/page/6/#findComment-589123724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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