[Official] Grand Theft Auto IV

By AimLXJ
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Grand Master

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The extra "security padding" doesn't really make sense. If it really was there, it'd be part of the ISO itself and be reflected in the file sizes.

Plus, 1.5Gb for security? No way that makes sense at all, any kind of security on the disk would be things like digital signatures, which aren't anywhere near that big.

I read the first page of that thread and didn't see anything particularly special or noteworthy, they just seemed to be talking about the same thing someone posted earlier in this thread. If there's a specific post you wanted me to see, please link to that instead.

As for size versus speed, it's one of those things that really doesn't make much difference in the end. Blu-ray disks are too slow to directly stream off of, so you need to either duplicate the data to get a bit of extra speed, or you need to cache/install it to the hard drive. The PS3 originally had ****ty sales because it was so expensive, the 360 on the other hand gimped out on certain areas to make it more affordable and it's paid off.

Sure, the lack of a hard drive as standard is a bit of a bummer, but to be honest if a developer REALLY wants a mandatory hard drive requirement, they can do it. Instead, they can work around it by streaming stuff off of the disk and that's where the DVD drive's speed really works, it almost negates the need for a hard drive at all. What's more, the 360 was designed specifically for this kind of thing and Microsoft themselves recommend almost dedicating an entire core to decompressing data on the fly, effectively giving you a lot more "bang" for your buck.

So it's a tradeoff situation, but it's also a catch-22 - you can have more data, but be required to offload it to a hard drive, or you can have less data, but be able to store it highly compressed. In the end, it balances out quite a bit.

I'm thinking of writing up an article, from a more technical point of view, describing how the two consoles are a lot more evenly matched than some people want to believe, especially when it comes to which is faster for games.

I'd say it balances out for us, as end users, as there is negatives and pro's and all we do is play the games, not make them.

However for developers I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. We've heard grumbles about space every now and then for a while.

Even although I said in the case of MGS4 it doesn't really matter for the 360 as it's a PS3 built up game, however if whatever Kojima has done to need that space is legit, surely advances like that will only be replicated by other developers over time?

As I said though, I think MS will escape fine this generation, but towards the end of these consoles lifespans I think they'll only come across more and more gripes from developers, whether it be to do with DVD limitations, or segregation on the hard drive front.

No, the 360 doesn't need any installs as it can stream fast, but certain games really would benefit from optional installs.

I'll look into that security thing a bit more, but looking on the net it does check out with the size of disc rips (none do go above 7GB), and a few people are going on about it.

edit: From a couple of years ago,

# Optical Drive - As many have speculated, Xenon will not use Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Games will come on dual-layer DVD-9 discs. While the media is the same as that of the current Xbox, the usable space on each disc is up to 7 GB. The drive is slated to run at 12X.

Source: http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/microsoft-xbox/594331p1.html

Well the discs do hold 8.4GB, so if they can only use 7GB, why?

Grand Master

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Can we try to keep everything on topic here guys? I think there is a time and place for the disk discussion, just not here if you guys are going to continue arguing.

Does it look like we're arguing?

No, cause we're not.

And fyi, talk about the format the 360 uses, does link into GTA4 on some fronts. If you read the NeoGAF link I used as a source, the topic is actually from a GTA4 developer discussing using a DVD, and the future.

Grand Master

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Does it look like we're arguing?

No, cause we're not.

And fyi, talk about the format the 360 uses, does link into GTA4 on some fronts. If you read the NeoGAF link I used as a source, the topic is actually from a GTA4 developer discussing using a DVD, and the future.

My comment was geared towards back and forth posts on the last page that were getting a little out of hand.

I guess when I see the focus turn away from the game for the most part and instead talk about the media was why I posted in the first place.

Grand Master

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Not sure what you are talking about. I just checked the last couple pages and haven't found post from you.

My comment was geared towards back and forth posts on the last page that were getting a little out of hand.

When you said disk discussion I assumed you meant what me and Kushan we're talking about.

Sorry, my bad (Y)

Mentor

troist

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Does anyone know where to find an RPG? I haven't come across one in the main mission yet and the gun shops won't sell me them until I find one :(

Does it look like we're arguing?

No, cause we're not.

And fyi, talk about the format the 360 uses, does link into GTA4 on some fronts. If you read the NeoGAF link I used as a source, the topic is actually from a GTA4 developer discussing using a DVD, and the future.

Yes, but this topic is about GTA4, and the topic you're talking about is disc formats or whatever, which isn't GTA.

If I started arguing about how the 360's CPU is better than the Cell then it does link into GTA4 on some fronts, and I'm sure there are some quotes from Rockstar about the Cell processor/360 to backup my points, but its not for this topic.

Grand Master

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Does anyone know where to find an RPG? I haven't come across one in the main mission yet and the gun shops won't sell me them until I find one :(

Yes, but this topic is about GTA4, and the topic you're talking about is disc formats or whatever, which isn't GTA.

If I started arguing about how the 360's CPU is better than the Cell then it does link into GTA4 on some fronts, and I'm sure there are some quotes from Rockstar about the Cell processor/360 to backup my points, but its not for this topic.

If you're article/discussion did link to GTA4 I see no wrong in it being in the "Official GTA4 topic".

It's not the "Official GTA4 Gameplay topic".

The whole purpose of this topic is to prevent lots of articles being posted on GTA4 spanning over 3 sections (Sony/MS and vanilla GH).

However some things we were discussing were going a little offtopic, I must admit.

Grand Master

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If you're article/discussion did link to GTA4 I see no wrong in it being in the "Official GTA4 topic".

It's not the "Official GTA4 Gameplay topic".

The whole purpose of this topic is to prevent lots of articles being posted on GTA4 spanning over 3 sections (Sony/MS and vanilla GH).

However some things we were discussing were going a little offtopic, I must admit.

I think that is what this topic has mainly turned into (thankfully) as most of the format stuff (360vsPS3) is past most of us by now (at least I thought).

Grand Master

Kushan

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I'd say it balances out for us, as end users, as there is negatives and pro's and all we do is play the games, not make them.

However for developers I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. We've heard grumbles about space every now and then for a while.

Even although I said in the case of MGS4 it doesn't really matter for the 360 as it's a PS3 built up game, however if whatever Kojima has done to need that space is legit, surely advances like that will only be replicated by other developers over time?

As I said though, I think MS will escape fine this generation, but towards the end of these consoles lifespans I think they'll only come across more and more gripes from developers, whether it be to do with DVD limitations, or segregation on the hard drive front.

No, the 360 doesn't need any installs as it can stream fast, but certain games really would benefit from optional installs.

I'll look into that security thing a bit more, but looking on the net it does check out with the size of disc rips (none do go above 7GB), and a few people are going on about it.

edit: From a couple of years ago,

Source: http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/microsoft-xbox/594331p1.html

Well the discs do hold 8.4GB, so if they can only use 7GB, why?

The fact that the ISO for Oblivion is 7.3Gb disproves what that article states. There hasn't been an official piece of documentaiton stating that you can't use the full 8.54Gb of space on a DVD that I'm aware of.

Like I said before, very few 360 games use or need multiple disks, if every other game that came out required you to swap disks then I might be more inclined to agree that the space is a huge limitation, but right now it doesn't seem to be that way at all.

Apparently (I don't know if this is true, perhaps you could confirm this) on the 360 version of GTAIV, if you are chasing something in a car and you press B, the camera focuses on the target. It's almost completely useless for me, but apparently that's not avalable in the PS3 version??? Can anyone confirm?

Grand Master

Huleboeren

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Does anyone know where to find an RPG? I haven't come across one in the main mission yet and the gun shops won't sell me them until I find one :(

snip

http://grandtheftauto.ign.com/maps/1/Liberty-City-Map

Filter by weapons - then click the icons see if you find an rpg :p

Grand Master

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The fact that the ISO for Oblivion is 7.3Gb disproves what that article states. There hasn't been an official piece of documentaiton stating that you can't use the full 8.54Gb of space on a DVD that I'm aware of.

Like I said before, very few 360 games use or need multiple disks, if every other game that came out required you to swap disks then I might be more inclined to agree that the space is a huge limitation, but right now it doesn't seem to be that way at all.

Apparently (I don't know if this is true, perhaps you could confirm this) on the 360 version of GTAIV, if you are chasing something in a car and you press B, the camera focuses on the target. It's almost completely useless for me, but apparently that's not avalable in the PS3 version??? Can anyone confirm?

I don't know what source you used for Oblivion, but I've clocked a PAL Oblivion at 6.44 GB, and NTSC at 6.41 GB - Both for 360.

Some new technical info on the XBox360 has leaked from CEDEC, a convention overseas. The event had a required Non-Disclosure Agreement, but somehow it got reported on anyway. Check out these new bits of info.

-snip-

-In a double-layer DVD for Xbox 360, 7GB is usable by a game. The transfer rate of the DVD drive is 15MB/sec max,

Source: http://www.gamersreports.com/index.php?sid=3138 via http://journal.mycom.co.jp/articles/2005/09/09/cedec1/

Another source for 7GB. Seeing as the information comes from what looks to be a MS presented convention, I find it much more likely to believe.

Gamespy was hardly a dodgy source either.

Edited by Audioboxer
Grand Master

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Yeaaahhhh....that source was "leaked" back in 2005 before the console was even released and isn't 100% accurate as it is.

Well those titles we have heard grumbles of disc space issues about aren't floating 8.4, or even say 8.2/8GB isos onto the internet at the end of the day...

So why are developers complaining about space when their game comes out at 6.4-7GB? Surely they'd only complain if they were hitting 8+ GB, no?

I doubt you'll see a 360 game use 8.4GB, why? Because sources point to it being unable to.

However it looks like you'll always say it can unless MS themselves say it can't - Let's hope your claim is proven by a game using the "whole" disc then. That is unless you're now going to play devils advocate and say a game will never need 8.4GB for the whole 360 generation.

If a game comes out and proves me wrong, fine, but places on the internet/what people are saying points to 7GB, and the rest is rumoured to be reserved for something relating to security.

Rocket launcher is on Algonquin - Top left bridge on the map (one connecting to the other island), just above there to the right of the road when it curves. I think you need a helicopter to get to it.

Grand Master

Kushan

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Well those titles we have heard grumbles of disc space issues about aren't floating 8.4, or even say 8.2/8GB iso's onto the internet at the end of the day...

So why are developers complaining about space when their game comes out at 6.4-7GB? Surely they'd only complain if they were hitting 8+ GB, no?

I doubt you'll see a 360 game use 8.4GB, why? Because sources point to it being unable to.

However it looks like you'll always say it can unless MS themselves say it can't - Let's hope your claim is proven by a game using the "whole" disc then.

I'm not saying one way or the other, I'm simply saying that nobody's got any real proof to say that it can't use the full disk, just documents that are quite literally years old and speculative. It also boggles the mind as to why Microsoft would limit the disks in this way, there's no hardware limitation or anything, so why is this the case?

Even if 7Gb WAS the limit, then why do most games still come on one disk? What's stopping developers splitting their games up onto multiple disks?

Grand Master

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I'm not saying one way or the other, I'm simply saying that nobody's got any real proof to say that it can't use the full disk, just documents that are quite literally years old and speculative. It also boggles the mind as to why Microsoft would limit the disks in this way, there's no hardware limitation or anything, so why is this the case?

Even if 7Gb WAS the limit, then why do most games still come on one disk? What's stopping developers splitting their games up onto multiple disks?

A lot of genres would suffer from disc splitting.

Typically only RPGs can flow well with a black screen saying insert disc 2 - Which is why, low and behold it's only really RPGs doing it on the 360 (LO being 4 discs).

If a title like Halo 3/COD4 or even PGR4 had a disc for SP and one for MP, that would be all kinds of fail and inconvenience.

You'd be swapping multiple times to play depending on whether you wanted SP or MP, whereas with an RPG you only need to swap once for each disc to play through the title.

Basically pretty much anything with MP and SP causes an issue with multiple discs unless you split it for MP and SP (which as I said above, would be a pain) - Or else on each disc containing a portion of SP, you'd have to replicate all your MP content again to allow MP to be played on each disc.

Edited by Audioboxer
Grand Master

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Yeaaahhhh....that source was "leaked" back in 2005 before the console was even released and isn't 100% accurate as it is.

I would suggest you go back to the alleged developer you work for and check the specs as to what space usage you can utilize on a 360 release, what AudioBoxer posted is more or less correct. NDA's stop me posting exact figures, but its as near as damn it. 2005 was when the console was nearing the end of its dev. cycle.

Anyhoo, not wanting to get into an argument over this, help needed ... I have just gotten to the second home, after the other place was burned down and the taxi place too. The first mission I have to take the guys out in the warehouse, I can snipe one or two from the roof, but dropping in I always seem to get killed, any tips?

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