Stardock's relationship with Neowin and its criticizers

[dDrumz]

Like some other people, i've never spoke to Brad - Not got a problem with him.

And as far as i'm concerned, if it were not for Stardocks investment, then Neowin wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is !

Can I get an Amen?

[Rappy Veteran]

yes....people with over 10,000 posts get a free copy of all the Stardock products :shiftyninja:

People with over 20k get a stake in Neowin :shifty:

[EnzoFX]

Glad this was said OP. I for one <3 Stardock and Neowin. I miss the weekly podcasts Brad...

=P

[the-Jafo]

Nice to see a predominantly positive reaction to the news....;)

[excalpius]

Ah, this explains why we see so much news about Stardock on this site and virtually nowhere else. I always wondered about that. :)

[jwjw1]

Personally, I think Neobound and the Staff made the decisions necessary (economically) to provide this community with the best. I'm not a Stardock Product Fan and I find no need to bad mouth it..i've tried it..disliked it and walked away....there is constructive criticism that is handled maturely...and then there are the children every forum has that needs to express the temper tantrums...hopefully one day they will chase a ball across the highway without looking both ways.

[az`rael]

Technically, Brad owns the majority share as 30% is awarded to both the Founders.

Second, I think it's important that the internet is an ugly beast and that if someone says Stardock sucks, Brad should such it up.

Think about how poor Bill Gates would feel if he read... well... pretty much any Tech Forum :(

[KC]

I reckon some of our members from 2001/2002 and beyond can vouch for this too, Neowin has only ever improved its services to you, be thankful of it and Brads support if you want it to stay that way.

I can vouch for this. Neowin's performance now is completely different. When I joined, it was just a custom IPB skin and a hacked up portal on the front page. Things now are streamlined and very nice. Neowin has always been a great community and that's why I keep coming back here.

I myself have never used any of Stardock's products; but I am aware of them. I've been aware of the fact that Brad has been a active member here for sometime. I can say though that I don't really feel like I am visiting "Stardock" when visiting this site. If it wasn't for the fact that I've been here for awhile I would have never would have been apparent that Stardock has any relationship with Neowin. I've personally never felt that Stardock producst are pushed or promoted on this site. If that was the case there wouldn't be a very active msstyles area.

Thanks to the admins/owners/mods for this wonderful community.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Ah, this explains why we see so much news about Stardock on this site and virtually nowhere else. I always wondered about that. :)

You'd have to define "nowwhere else". Right now, Stardock news is on the front page of IGN and GameSpy and the same software news that appears here also appears on Betanews and other similar tech sites.

In many cases, Stardock gets less coverage on Neowin than other sites. There's been a number of times where something about Stardock has appeared on the front page of Digg or Slashdot without any coverage here. Similarly, major news on Stardock related games often do not get covered here.

Now, that said, Stardock almost always submits its news items to Neowin. But that has nothing to do with Stardock's ownership stake. Anyone can submit news to Neowin and get the same level of coverage.

[Sam Symons Veteran]

Hmm. Maybe this is just because I haven't read the thread due to laziness, but why would people have a problem with Stardock? As far as I'm concerned it's up to the owners of Neowin to decide what happens, etc. I support both Neowin and Stardock.

[redeemed]

They leaked something and Microsoft wasn't happy. Call their hosting company and shut Neowin down.

Probably this http://www.news.com/2100-1025-991624.html

If I remember well, there was a post on the frontpage (about microsoft content) that wasn't supposed to be public and Neowin got hit by a Cease and Desist order...

But they came back after a while.

EDIT: More information on the Microsoft patent CaD order: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/03/07/ne...t_downed_by_ms/ (YES I know it's The Register, read anyway :p)

Thanks :)

[Toxicfume Veteran]

There are two sides to a coin, and both these sides are more or less well balanced here on Neowin.

As one of the first members and staff on a site who, kind of, had a deeper knowledge of this entire deal going on; I was very reluctant myself when I first heard of the proposition, along with several other staff. We used to even harbor a strong anti-corporate sentiment. But with all the crap we had to go through with server troubles (we would more than often change hosts, undergo downtimes, etc), legal issues with Microsoft, etc. It was simply inevitable. It was costing Neobond and Redmak too much to keep the cogs running. It was really as simple as that. There was no conspiracy or anything fishy behind the deal, at least on Neowin's part. But after all these years of being with Stardock; I'll be completely fair and say that I have never noticed any hostile authoritative takeover attempt on their part. They have always been very modest in how they effect the overall content of Neowin. Like a member above said, you never get the impression that Stardock is taking advantage of the opprtunity; you don't see a bunch of banners or Stardock spam on the site. In fact, to be honest, I'm surprised by this. I thought they'd be asking a lot more than what they've received.

But now on to the point of Brad/Frogboy; I think I have to go with the minority on this one. And StevoFC put it VERY accurately.

The problem with this whole thing is that the staff here assumes most people have a problem with Brad due to his Stardock affiliation, but that's not the case at all. People just flat out don't like him. It has nothing to do with the companies he owns or doesn't own. It comes down to the way he treats members here.

If you drive members away due to a "I'm better than you attitude" then all the money invested doesn't mean much now does it?

The staff may never straightforwardly admit that, but it's very true. People have a problem with Frogboy not because Stardock owns Neowin, but because of his attitude.

Now, personally I never had any run in with Frogboy during my staff times on Neowin. But, however, I think I feel the same way as StevoFC and Tom Servo about his overall general attitude.

Frogboy, pointing out the fact that you get more attention than others because you are a CEO of a company doesn't justify your attitudes towards members here. I'm not going to pick out specific instances here, but it has been on more than a few occasions that you have been offensively vocal and raised that Ban stick or give out unnecessary warns to members that legitimately (maybe not constructively) criticize your products. You make it look like they reigned your parade when you respond that way.

Now maybe that has changed, I haven't been very active here, but this is at least why members flat out didn't like Frogboy/Brad. And keep in mind, once again, that this has nothing to do with Stardock's corporate partnership with Neowin. This is on a personal level with the attitude of Frogboy himself.

No matter how much money Stardock has given Neowin, no matter how much better services Neowin has been able to provide it's members as a result of this (which I highly respect Stardock for leaving NEowin virtually untouched, don't get me wrong), it will never, ever, justify an Admin acting with a "better than thou" or a "know it all" attitude towards its members.

Yet, shoving all that aside, I really like how Neowin has evolved to be now! As a veteran member here, beleive me when I say it does take a full time effort to do what the staff of Neowin are doing. Cheers to the staff! Keep up the good work.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Toxicfume

[curme]

Hmm. Maybe this is just because I haven't read the thread due to laziness, but why would people have a problem with Stardock? As far as I'm concerned it's up to the owners of Neowin to decide what happens, etc. I support both Neowin and Stardock.

I'd answer you, because I actually read the thread, but I'm too lazy to finish thi

[Panacik]

Hi guys!

Here's a brief history of how things came to be.

I've been part of Neowin since about the beginning (2001). Within a few months of being active, Steve asked me if I'd like to be part of the staff as a moderator. Eventually, I became a news moderator for the site.

When I became part of the staff, I became familiar with the challenges and issues that Neowin faced. Neowin's popularity continued to grow and grow but the site wasn't really in a position to support its own success. One lawsuit or a few months of non-payment from advertisers or any number of other things and that would have been the end. Steve and Marcel were volunteering their spare time on the site which obviously took away from their free time.

After talking about it at length, we came up with a solution. Neowin LLC. So in 2005, we created Neowin LLC with Stardock being a minority owner of it. Stardock would provide investment capital and access to its infrastructure so that Steve could work full time on the site, have its own servers, control its own hosting destiny, have access to legal and accounting help, and be able to host events and pay for staff to attend various events.

In the 3+ years since we've done this, Neowin's popularity has continued to grow and overall it's been a great success.

Now, some people on the site don't like me. There are many different reasons for this. Probably the biggest reason is that I don't like like a CEO is expected to. If you took the content of my posts and made them by someone else, they wouldn't likely be a big deal. But because they're from me, they tend to get more scrutiny.

For instance, I'll get into discussions on cars, politics, OS wars, gadgets, skinning, gaming, you name it. I give opinions on those topics. Some people, naturally, don't agree with those opinions. And a few of them come to not like me for those opinions. And they project those opinions onto Stardock as a whole.

Thus, when a news item is made or whatever, those people will start trolling the topics.

Check out: https://www.neowin.net/news/software/08/05/...pes-20#comments for a typical example.

Moreover, there will be a tendancy for some people to selectively target anything with me or Stardock for criticism. In turn, I will tend to be defensive about it. I try to avoid it but sometimes you'll see trolling that is so over the top that it's hard not to respond. In turn, this will make some people who know who I am become critics as well and so the negative feedback loop continues to the point that no matter how legitimate the news item is, you'll have people targeting it for trolling simply because the source is either me or has something to do with Stardock.

Overall, though, it's been a tremendous success. Staff morale is much higher. We're able to get a lot more done. And the community as a whole has grown.

Cheers!

Wow. I think people just take the internet to seriously sometimes. I myself have been well known by the Neowin staff to take things to seriously many times, but then you just take a break and realise... hey... its only a website.

To be honest, if people moan at you about it or anything, then its just because they like to put you down to bring themselves up...

To be honest:

This thread proved my pessimism wrong: When Neobond started it this morning I expected a lot of negative comments and an outright flame war knowing how critical some users are of Stardock in general and Frogboy in particular. Perhaps I overestimated their number.

Yeah, but thats because your a moddy so and so and always expect the worse :p

[CoolCatBad]

I didn't know, but always assumed there was some kind of formal relationship with Stardock; given the highly public profile of Frogboy/Wardell on these boards.

I have never seen any Stardock-bashing in the sections I frequent, perhaps they appear in the Customizing threads, where you would reasonably expect the most subjective of opinions.

In any case, nothing I have ever posted in regard of free shell replacements (Litestep, BBLean...etc), things which would compete with Windowblinds, have been censored in any way.

[goji]

People with over 20k get a stake in Neowin :shifty:

Well Hell.... time to start spamming :devil:

[-Hiroshi-]

Oh, well THAT explains a few things.. :hmmm:

I agree with ToxicFume fully, I love how Neowin has evolved has a website, but I feel a harsh "better than thou" attitude from not only Frogboy, but a lot of Stardock staffers.. I dont mind the company, just the way they treat people...

One thing that ****es me off about Stardock.. People affiliated with them come in and FLAME people who criticize a product, yeah, it's called freedom of speech.. :hmmm:

Edited May 13, 2008 by -Hiroshi-

[Harlem39s Finest]

I've been around Neowin for a while (just look at my reg date), and I've paid for Stardock products in the past (such as Windowblinds). I even have a current subscription to Startdock "Ultimate" thing.

Stardock's products are not the problem. You can like them, love them, or hate them. They're just like any other product.

The issue is the USER-created and submitted content. Most of what I've seen is god-awful. And then various websites (such as Stardock) charge MONEY to download it.

Want an ugly, eye-gouging theme for Windows? No problem! Just pay $10 to download Theme A! Or Theme B, or any other of the hundreds of poorly-design, non-maintained skins available for use with Stardock products.

Maybe if you offered downloadables for a more fair $1-$3 each, you know, like the price of ring-tones, people would more likely pay for all the stuff you have.

Also, perhaps put up some good design guide-lines. Having something minimal or professional would be more well-received than the LOUD, amateur-ish skins offered.

yeah its funny how most of the skins are clunky, its very hard to find a simple, clean, minimalistic skin without springs, huge taskbar, etc. but when a good skin comes there's big chance you'll have to pay for it...

i only have 2 themes on my windowblinds, is there a way to conver msstyles to wb ?

[-Hiroshi-]

yeah its funny how most of the skins are clunky, its very hard to find a simple, clean, minimalistic skin without springs, huge taskbar, etc. but when a good skin comes there's big chance you'll have to pay for it...

i only have 2 themes on my windowblinds, is there a way to conver msstyles to wb ?

I believe the older skinstudio application can do that, not sure on the newer one.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Oh, well THAT explains a few things.. :hmmm:

I agree with ToxicFume fully, I love how Neowin has evolved has a website, but I feel a harsh "better than thou" attitude from not only Frogboy, but a lot of Stardock staffers.. I dont mind the company, just the way they treat people...

One thing that ****es me off about Stardock.. People affiliated with them come in and FLAME people who criticize a product, yeah, it's called freedom of speech.. :hmmm:

I would be the first to admit that I my responses can rub some people the wrong way. I most definitely give the impression that I think I'm always right because well, I often think I am right. What can I say? I'm very opinionated and some people find that offensive. I don't tend to have a lot of patience with people who speak passionately about things they are totally unfamiliar with.

Plus, I have often observed that those who start a discussion flaming someone or something suddenly cry "free speech" if others jump in who disagree with them.

That said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single posting where I have casually waved the "ban" stick. In the years I've been an admin, the # of people I've banned could be counted on 1 hand.

And I think if you looked outside certain parts of the Neowin community, you'd find that Stardock is well liked. For example, take a look at a typical posting on Blues News: http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?...;threadid=84592 or any other site that posts news and look at the comments.

To make a long story short, am I sometimes mean to people on forums? Definitely. There's no malice intended. As one user here once summed up "Your problem Brad is that you will argue your point to the bitter end." and that is what I think rubs people the wrong way.

Plus my responses tend to be long. :)

[Dick Montage]

To make a long story short, am I sometimes mean to people on forums? Definitely.

But it doesn't seem to be out of malice.

However, this raises a point: I am similar in attitude - I am frank, to the point, and when I feel I am right I'm like a dog with a bone. Yeah I have an open mind, but you really gotta convince me I am wrong. And I can be mean.

But I've not put any investment (on that scale) into Neowin. So I lose the right to be mean to people. Or you gain that right by investing?

Note: This is not an attack or criticism, but rather looking at your agument ...

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I would be the first to admit that I my responses can rub some people the wrong way. I most definitely give the impression that I think I'm always right because well, I often think I am right. What can I say? I'm very opinionated and some people find that offensive. I don't tend to have a lot of patience with people who speak passionately about things they are totally unfamiliar with.

Plus, I have often observed that those who start a discussion flaming someone or something suddenly cry "free speech" if others jump in who disagree with them.

That said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single posting where I have casually waved the "ban" stick. In the years I've been an admin, the # of people I've banned could be counted on 1 hand.

And I think if you looked outside certain parts of the Neowin community, you'd find that Stardock is well liked. For example, take a look at a typical posting on Blues News: http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?...;threadid=84592 or any other site that posts news and look at the comments.

To make a long story short, am I sometimes mean to people on forums? Definitely. There's no malice intended. As one user here once summed up "Your problem Brad is that you will argue your point to the bitter end." and that is what I think rubs people the wrong way.

Plus my responses tend to be long. :)

Anyone passionate about anything is going to take a beating from some people - More so than someone who's maybe a little more reserved and less outspoken. It's kind of a ball in your park you have to accept. If you're going to be outspoken, and publicly make it known you do like a product, you have to be prepared to put up with resistance. Some of that resistance is absolutely fine, it's just a mirror image of someone who is the same as you, except they support a competitor, however some of it is also toxic as you talked about in your blog. Mods are there to encourage the good side to allow neowin to have debates and civil-arguments, but also to weed out the toxic posts.

Nowadays the line between passion and a degrading statement like "fanboy" seems to be hazy in some accusers eyes. It's one extreme or the other for them, they don't seem to see it possible for someone to really be happy/satisfied with a product, yet still be able to criticise it, and understand when something else is better - If you lavish on a little more praise than they deem fit, you'll be called out as someone who's blind, can't see any wrong in the product, ect, ect.

Best thing you can do is keep as best a balance in your arguments as you can, admit when you're "wrong" (it's inevitable someone may find/see a flaw in your argument, or just come out with an opinion you actually agree with over the one who originally posted) and just stick to the rules.

You do that, and it's the people lashing out at you who'll get in trouble eventually...

Not really aimed at you Brad, I hardly know you, but I kind of get the jist at what you mean in your post.

Plus my responses tend to be long. :)

Nothing wrong with that, I'd rather someone takes the time to type up a decent backing to their argument/opinion, and the board manages to find flaws/areas to talk about, than the people who fly in with a one-hit-"wonder"-sentence and then do a runner after seeing the fireworks go off.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Audioboxer

[Dick Montage]

Plus my responses tend to be long.

Nothing wrong with that, I'd rather someone takes the time to type up a decent backing to their argument/opinion, and the board manages to find flaws/areas to talk about, than the people who fly in with a one-hit-"wonder"-sentence and then do a runner after seeing the fireworks go off.

100% agree. I would read 5 pages of answers on a subject if I trusted the source! I like to be informed and love to learn. There are certain members on this forums who's advice I trust (MrBester: Javascript. Budman: Networking, etc). Frogboy clearly is THE voice when it comes to theming.

[+jamesyfx Subscriber²]

I'm 10 pages late, but hey.

I don't mind Stardock products, but I do think the amount of negativity of their products here is a bit unnecessary. It's just amazing sometimes how badly informed some people are. I think the most common complaint about Windowblinds (for instance), is that it's a resource hog, but that was what.. 2-3 years ago? It's like people are so stubborn about that and won't let it go.

So you can kinda see why the company gives such critical responses.. if the complaints are all like that.

[Winswy]

Well, great thread, shows that Neowin members for the most part can hold a civil discussion on a topic that could have been charged.

some great comments and insight.

Thanks :)