The Hillsborough Football Disaster: 15th April 1989

[Subject Delta]

I am withholding the feeling I have to say something seriously rude because I don't want a warning, but seriously get the facts and reverse your ignorance please. Nobody got stabbed, in fact the fans helped each other more than the Police did.

And FYI, there was a long and dark tunnel leading into the central pens, the fans didn't know it was full, nor did they know that there was somewhere else to go, so how the hell you get the impression that is somehow their fault is beyond me. Pushing and shoving didn't cause this disaster, sheer weight of bodies caused people to die from Traumatic Asphyxia. By the time the fans realised the pen was full, it was too late, because they where trapped, and the sheer weight of people coming in from behind prevented anyone from escaping.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be a pretty happy person.

[Titoist]

1. the stabbing was an example

2. "By the time the fans realised the pen was full, it was too late, because they where trapped, and the sheer weight of people coming in from behind prevented anyone from escaping." You just defined pushing and shoving. I guess theres no such thing as turning around and telling the people behind you to go back.

[Olemus]

1. the stabbing was an example

2. "By the time the fans realised the pen was full, it was too late, because they where trapped, and the sheer weight of people coming in from behind prevented anyone from escaping." You just defined pushing and shoving. I guess theres no such thing as turning around and telling the people behind you to go back.

There was no going back. I suggest watching the documentary Hillsborough Remembered which explains it all and shows images of the tunnel/outside and the pens were people were being crushed, this was not the fault of any "pushing and shoving" at all there was just literally nowhere for anyone to go even the people at the back. Lack of police control caused this incident not fans, the fans as stated were helpful and came together as one to help people survive.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

The Lord Justice Taylor report is not the be all and end all Fred.

The coroner ruled that everyone would have died by 3:15. However, there are eye witnesses and even a paramedic that confirmed people were alive at 3:40.

The 3:15 cut off is VERY important, because it means all evidence after that time would be discounted for the inquiry.

Improvements were made to stadia, there is no denying that the chances of another Hillsborough happening in the UK again are very slim, but that is not the be all and end all of the justice campaign.

Read this, and it should help you to understand the campaign for justice http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/8HFDCombined.pdf

It is very, very hard to plan for disasters like this. The police may have initially suspected a bomb/terror plot and thus the possibility of a second detonation.

It appears that the inquiry/Taylor report did its job to change the rules that allowed this to happen and thus prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

What would be gained by a second inquiry and/or a second report? Do you believe that evidence could be found to suggest that the police acted with intentional malice as opposed to simple errors in judgment? Do you believe there was a premeditated conspiracy in place to maximize suffering? I do not see what another inquiry could possible achieve that the Taylor Report failed to do.

Retroactively judging the decisions of individual officers would accomplish little.

[Subject Delta]

1. the stabbing was an example

2. "By the time the fans realised the pen was full, it was too late, because they where trapped, and the sheer weight of people coming in from behind prevented anyone from escaping." You just defined pushing and shoving. I guess theres no such thing as turning around and telling the people behind you to go back.

No, that isn't pushing and shoving, it is very difficult. And have you ever BEEN to a football match? Trust me, it is not as easy to do as you are making out, you always get queues that are chock full of people. Seeing as the tunnel behind them was absolutely jam packed, and it was the only exit, the moment you entered the queue to get into the stand, you where a passenger. And trust me, when you have a football stadium with vast numbers of people making so much noise, it is very hard to discern what is what. Also bear in mind that there was an estimated 24,000 liverpool fans at the ground, and when you have thousands of people screaming for their lives, the noise is so immense that the people outside the ground wouldn't have had the slightest clue of the horrors that where unfolding inside.

It is very, very hard to plan for disasters like this. The police may have initially suspected a bomb/terror plot and thus the possibility of a second detonation.

It appears that the inquiry/Taylor report did its job to change the rules that allowed this to happen and thus prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

What would be gained by a second inquiry and/or a second report? Do you believe that evidence could be found to suggest that the police acted with intentional malice as opposed to simple errors in judgment? Do you believe there was a premeditated conspiracy in place to maximize suffering? I do not see what another inquiry could possible achieve that the Taylor Report failed to do.

Retroactively judging the decisions of individual officers would accomplish little.

No. I don't know what the laws are in Canada, but in the UK we have what is known as negligent manslaughter, where people are punished for extreme negligence which leads to avoidable deaths, and that is what is at play here. The sad fact is, that there has been a coverup, and short of criminal punishment, none of the individuals involved have ever even admitted their guilt or apologized to the families of the victims. Even if there is no prosecution, the people involved need to stand up and acknowledge their failings, it is the least that the families deserve.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

In Canada it is called Criminal Negligence Causing Death. In order for that to stick, they would have to prove that the police officers knew what should have been done in that scenario. That, I expect, would be difficult.

[Subject Delta]

You'd expect a police chief to know what to do :/

[Olemus]

I have mixed feelings about whos to blame, sure the police lost control over the situation but I would put it more down to bad stadium design than anything else, even if police lost control of a situation like that now in modern times we wouldnt see the same issue because of the lack of fencing, proper exit gates and turnstile systems etc..

You'd expect a police chief to know what to do hmm.gif

This was his first event, its no excuse but it would explain why things got out of hand, although he should have held his hand up and admitted he was struggling, postponed the match for an hour or so until the crush was sorted outside instead of opening the floodgates and letting everyone rush in, also the tunnel leading in to the central pens should have been closed at the same time the exit gate was opened to relieve the crush Forcing people to go either of the side pens but not the already packed central ones (police AND/OR stewards should have at least been pointing people into side pens and not allowing them to go in to center pens)

[Subject Delta]

The stadium design didn't help, but part of the problem was the way they segregated the fans in the 1980s. In today's football they'd just fan out into the side stands but sadly the fencing prevented that

[Subject Delta]

Hillsborough Files May Be Opened

Secret files on the Hillsborough disaster could be made public 10 years early after a request from the home secretary.

Jacqui Smith has asked South Yorkshire Police to release the documents, which contain detailed evidence of what happened during the tragedy in 1989.

It could help families of the 96 victims who want a new inquiry.

Ms Smith has met South Yorkshire Chief Constable Meredydd Hughes to discuss the records.

'Full picture'

Trevor Hicks, of the Hillsborough Families Support Group, said: "I am pleased, it's better late than never.

"This will enable us to see the full picture of events in a way that we have been denied for 20 years.

"It is vital that these files are released in full and not sanitised in anyway."

He also requested that the families are given time to view the documents before they are made public.

"Some of the documents are bound to contain information about the manner in which our loved ones died, their medical conditions and so on.

"I think it's best if we learn of that ourselves and not through other parties."

Culture secretary Andy Burnham was heckled as campaigners shouted "Justice for the 96" at the Hillsborough memorial service on Wednesday.

Following the service, he called for "full disclosure" of all evidence on the Hillsborough disaster.

Kevin Robinson, chairman of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign added: "The memorial service on Wednesday, I think had an affect on Andy Burham, the culture secretary.

"He saw how the pain was still there and he heard the chants for justice, it is high time the government realised that something should be done."

Inquest ruling

The files contain evidence from the police, local council and the ambulance service. Documents like this are usually not made public for 30 years, but the home secretary has intervened two decades after the disaster.

Evidence was examined during the original inquest, in which the coroner ruled all victims had sustained their fatal injuries by 3.15pm, based on advice from pathologists.

As a result, he did not hear any evidence of what happened after that point - but many bereaved families believe their loved ones could have still been alive and they want a fresh inquiry.

Sheffield MP Clive Betts was the leader of Sheffield City Council at the time of the disaster.

He welcomed the early release of the papers but said he believed the council documents would reveal little that was new.

He said: "I think the council . . .was upfront at the time in terms of officers explaining precisely what they had done in terms of inspecting and licensing of the ground before the disaster."

Source, and Kevin Robinson Interview

Not a victory, but a good step forward

[Martyn]

What's the "sun"? I got my information from the BBC.

I dunno how you can blame police for something that spectators did. Sure the police may have messed up, but its up to the individuals (spectators) to notice that it was full, but no, instead they decided to push and shove and continued to do so even after ambulance services showed up to remove those who died. So clearly, they knew that someone was injured/dead at the time and they continued to push and shove. So don't blame the police for the stupidity of the "survivors".

By your logic I can go to the next major public event and start pushing and shoving, hell even stabbing people, and then blame the cops because they didn't stop me.

BTW, May the victims R.I.P., ironic that the "victims" who caused your death are now mourning you.

I am ignorant of the tragedy. It was 89, I was 4yrs old and not in the country, but reading about what happen, this is the impression of the events that I am getting.

The S*n is a tabloid newspaper in the UK that told outrageous lies about what happened at Hillsborough, lies that have since been proven to be complete ********. I don't particularly want to talk about the lies in detail, but an example was "fans beat up Police Constable giving kiss of life", this was completely fabricated. Our fans behaved amazingly well on that day, tearing up advertising boards to act as stretchers to move and help the injured and dead.

To this day The S*n is boycotted in Liverpool, and the newspaper has estimated that they have lost ?400,000,000 in revenue over the last 20 years due to a loss of sales in Liverpool.

The disaster was not the spectators fault. There was no pushing or shoving, just the weight of the people filing into the already full paddock driving people forward, there was so many people I doubt you could even push or shove if you tried.

As for the police's role, I will talk about that below.

It is very, very hard to plan for disasters like this. The police may have initially suspected a bomb/terror plot and thus the possibility of a second detonation.

It appears that the inquiry/Taylor report did its job to change the rules that allowed this to happen and thus prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

What would be gained by a second inquiry and/or a second report? Do you believe that evidence could be found to suggest that the police acted with intentional malice as opposed to simple errors in judgment? Do you believe there was a premeditated conspiracy in place to maximize suffering? I do not see what another inquiry could possible achieve that the Taylor Report failed to do.

Retroactively judging the decisions of individual officers would accomplish little.

There was no bomb or terror plot at the time.

The Lord Justice Taylor report did indeed do its job in terms of reforming football, and because of Hillsborough grounds are much more safer than they used to be, making it almost impossible for an event like that to happen again in the UK.

It was clear the police were at fault. They failed to traffic fans correctly to their paddocks, and instead sent them to their death. It is not a simple mistake that caused this to happen, it was a combination of failures on the polices part.

Firstly, the crowd should be been more efficiently monitored, even though it was 1989 the technology was available to do so, with lots of CCTV cameras pinned around the ground so police could be correctly traffic fans to where they needed to be. There was a video monitoring room, in which police officers communicated with other police officers.

Something obviously went wrong here, as the police would have obviously noticed the Lepping's Lane end of the ground was full. Then there is also the fault that the fateful tunnel was not blocked off to the busy paddock when the gate was opened among other items of negligence on the police's part.

As for a conspiracy/cover-up theory, two CCTV video tapes that would have provided vital evidence were stolen on the night of the disaster from the video monitoring room. I wonder who took them and where they went?

A lot would be gained from a second inquiry. As I said above, matters after 3:15 were not investigated due to an incorrect ruling by the coroner, and a lot happened after 3:15 which would have seriously changed the content of the Lord Justice Taylor Report.

The families want justice, and twenty years after the disaster took place they are still campaigning as hard as ever and will not be at peace until justice has been done.

[Titoist]

I just watched a documentary about the disaster and just WOW. Bad stadium design and rules at the time.

For that person that said if I have ever been to a match... yes I have. They sell ONLY the amount of tickets that can safely seat all attendees and if its open to the public which one match was, security literally COUNTS the number of people that are lining up at the gates. Also, at the gates, the stadium is designed to ALWAYS have a clear Exit path with no bunching up of people allowed.

[Martyn]

I just watched a documentary about the disaster and just WOW. Bad stadium design and rules at the time.

For that person that said if I have ever been to a match... yes I have. They sell ONLY the amount of tickets that can safely seat all attendees and if its open to the public which one match was, security literally COUNTS the number of people that are lining up at the gates. Also, at the gates, the stadium is designed to ALWAYS have a clear Exit path with no bunching up of people allowed.

What documentary did you watch?

Like you said, the logistics of a modern football game are great, especially so when compared to how they used to be when it was all terracing back in the 1980's.

[Titoist]

I dunno what its called, but it was on the CBC a couple of hours ago.

[Martyn]

I dunno what its called, but it was on the CBC a couple of hours ago.

I take it that is a terrestrial Canadian channel?

It is excellent news to hear the disaster receiving worldwide coverage.

[Subject Delta]

I just watched a documentary about the disaster and just WOW. Bad stadium design and rules at the time.

For that person that said if I have ever been to a match... yes I have. They sell ONLY the amount of tickets that can safely seat all attendees and if its open to the public which one match was, security literally COUNTS the number of people that are lining up at the gates. Also, at the gates, the stadium is designed to ALWAYS have a clear Exit path with no bunching up of people allowed.

The ticket allocations where correct, the tickets wern't oversold, but there where cockups on 2 counts

1: Liverpool fans, despite being greater in number, where allocated the smaller end of the ground by the FA

2: The police didn't close off access to the central pen, and direct fans to the side pens which probably had just about enough spare capacity to take the fans without serious incident.

[Martyn]

A Hillsborough policewoman has become the first officer to admit she was bullied into changing her statement in a huge police cover-up.

Special Constable Debra Martin made a statement telling how a Liverpool fan of 15 died in her arms at 3.55pm on the day of the tragedy, which claimed 96 lives.

But officers branded her a ?liar? and forced her to change the time in her account to 3.15pm ? to hide the fact he could have been saved.

Crucially, police have always claimed victims of the disaster died almost instantly in the crush that forced the FA Cup game?s end at 3.06pm.

They used that as the excuse for allowing only one of 45 ambulances on to the pitch to help victims. And the coroner Dr Stefan Popper brought in a ?cut-off? point, ruling that all the victims were dead by 3.15pm.

But today Debra tells how at least one of the victims ? teenager Kevin Williams ? was still alive 40 minutes later. She said she gave Kevin mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and remembers how he looked up at her just before he died and murmured the word ?Mum?.

Debra, 45, is the first member of South Yorkshire Police to go public with her revelations about cover-ups ? and her evidence could prove vital in a new inquiry.

She told the Sunday Mirror: ?The whole thing made me feel angry. These families deserve the truth after all these years.?

The dental nurse is believed to be among at least 12 officers ordered to change their initial statements.

She tells how she had four visits from senior officers who pressurised her into changing her statement. She also got hate mail at work.

Debra was in the Leppings Lane End when the crush began on April 15, 1989.

?It was bedlam,? she says. ?There were injured, dying and dead people everywhere.?

One of those fighting for life was Liverpool fan Kevin Williams. Debra says: ?Kevin was struggling to breathe. I gave him CPR (mouth-to-mouth). I?ll never forget his little face looking straight into mine. He uttered the word ?Mum? ? it was his last and he died in my arms.? Debra became a problem for the police because her account didn?t tally with the official line. And soon a terrifying operation began to silence her.

Debra says: ?We were all told not to talk to the Press, then a female officer and a man knocked at my door.

?The WPC told me my statement was wrong and she was there to change it as it was inconsistent with what had happened.?

Debra was determined not to alter her statement. ?But when they came back a second and a third time, they were more insistent,? she says.

?The WPC said, ?You?re a liar. We don?t even know if you were there. It?s probably all in your imagination?. I couldn?t believe it. Then I began getting hate mail at the police station.

?The final time the WPC hounded me at my house, they were adamant I had to change the time Kevin died. She put a new statement I hadn?t written under my nose ? I couldn?t take it any more, so I signed it.? Debra?s revelations come as the Government prepares to make public all official documents relating to the disaster at Liverpool?s FA Cup semi-final with Nottingham Forest.

Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, Meredydd Hughes, said last week: ?If I thought there was a cover-up, I?d already have dealt with it.?

But Debra remains distraught at the way families such as Kevin?s were denied the truth. She said: ?Every year, the nightmares of what happened that day come back to the families. They have got to be told the truth ? only then will those nightmares finally end.?

Last night Kevin?s mother Anne, 57, said: ?I?ve been screaming for 20 years that my son could have been saved ? he wasn?t dead at 3.15pm. The police just covered it all up.?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2...15875-21308274/

[Subject Delta]

The hive is certainly being stirred up at the moment, far more so than usual with any of the other Hillsborough anniversaries.

IMO this just goes along with what the families have been saying for years. Really sad. Add perjury to the charge of negligent manslaughter

[Martyn]

I'm going the memorial game on Thursday at Anfield. Sitting in The Kop again, block 107.

Shearer has just announced he is playing as well...

Alan Shearer has confirmed he will line-up for the All Stars side in Thursday's Hillsborough Memorial Game at Anfield.

"I'm really looking forward to the game and am delighted to help such a brilliant cause," said Shearer.

"Having spent time in Merseyside during my spell at Blackburn Rovers, I know how important Hillsborough is to the people there."

Shearer will join up with the likes of Teddy Sheringham, Mike Newell, Alan Irvine, Nigel Clough, Des Walker, Dave Watson, Alan Stubbs, Trevor Steven and Graham Stuart as well as celebrities such as boxer Joe Calzaghe, Westlife's Nicky Byrne, singer Craig David and Blue Peter presenter Gethin Jones.

The confirmed participants for the Anfield legends include Dalglish, Robbie Fowler, John Aldridge, Ian Rush, Peter Beardsley, Ronnie Whelan, Gary Gillespie, Jan Molby, Gary Ablett, Steve Staunton, Jamie Redknapp, Steve McManaman, Gary McAllister and Don Hutchison.

The Hillsborough Memorial Game is in aid of Marina Dalglish Appeal, which hopes to raise funds for the building of a new Radiotherapy Unit at University Hospital in Aintree.

Should be a class night (Y)

[Subject Delta]

What time will the game be broadcast on TV, and do those of us without sky sports stand a chance of seeing the game live?

[Rappy Veteran]

What time will the game be broadcast on TV, and do those of us without sky sports stand a chance of seeing the game live?

I saw it advertised on ITV 4 the other day so I presume its on there not sure tho.

[Martyn]

It's on ITV4 from 7pm to 10pm :)

[Subject Delta]

Great, I'll make sure to watch that then

[Martyn]

Absolutely amazing night.

I saw Kenny Dalgish scoring in front of The Kop, the stuff dreams are made of.

[Subject Delta]

Glad you enjoyed yourself. I missed because of work :( Never mind though, shall catch up with it tonight :D