+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted June 29, 2009 Subscriber² Share Posted June 29, 2009 PlayStation 3s without PS2 backwards compatibility are missing the Emotion Engine, a chip Sony designed as the PS2?s CPU. What if the PS3?s cell processor could emulate the Emotion Engine? Theoretically, all PlayStation 3s would be able to play PS2 games even if a console didn?t have the proper hardware. According to a recent patent filed by Sony Computer Entertainment in the US, Sony has the code and technology ready to do this. There are two main ways to emulate hardware. Interpretation is when target code is decoded and converted into a language the host can understand. The other strategy is to decode and recompile programs in the host?s language. Maybe the concept is better explained another way. Interpretation is like having someone constantly translating English to Japanese for you, non stop, twenty four hours a day wherever you go. Decoding and recompiling is like someone translating a sets of words and putting them in a dictionary you can reference. Sony developed a way to translate instructions from an Emotion Engine chip into chunks that can be referenced. Figure 2 from the patent is a schematic drawing of how the system works. Figure 3A is a drawing of the PlayStation 2?s chipset. Figure 3B is the emotion engine. Figure 4 is where the whole story gets interesting! It?s ?an example of a host system based on a cell processor that may be configured to emulate the target system.? The target is figure 3B, the Emotion Engine. There aren?t too many reasons why Sony would want the PS3?s Cell processor to emulate the PS2?s Emotion Engine and the key one is backwards compatibility. Perhaps, a firmware update or the new PlayStation 3 slim, which our friends at Ars Technica say is coming this fall, will utilize this technology. Source: http://www.siliconera.com/2009/06/29/sony-...ell-processors/ Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boz Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 Or the fact that you might need it for GoW 1 and 2? I'm not sure how most people will play these games on their PS3s when there's no PS2 EE support. In any case it's a good thing. I'm still very glad I own the original 60gb PS3 with full PS2 EE support so I can play upscaled GoW 1 and 2 :) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591209444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted June 29, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 29, 2009 YES! I can only hope this means I'll finally be able to play my PS2 games on my PS3 in the future... Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591209466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPyro Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 They are readying the PS2 store ;) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591209664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoL Veteran Posted June 30, 2009 Veteran Share Posted June 30, 2009 They are readying the PS2 store ;) BC an PS2 games on PS Store with Firmware 3.0?? That would be cool to have. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591209700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Flash Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 They are readying the PS2 store ;) (Y) I hope so. I have a PS2 but I gotta go out and buy component cables just so I can play in 480p. I'd rather have the comfort of playing those games upscaled from my PS3 hard drive. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591209746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPyro Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Here's the patent they have (I made a PDF so it's easier to read). United_States_Patent_Application__0090164205.pdf Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591209824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy0 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Here's to hoping. (Y) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Helix Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 wow, i never knew it was an chip in the PS3 that gave backwards compatibility, lol i always figured it was emulation. wait, you mean they removed this chip to save cost im assuming and it didnt get cheaper? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leddy Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 wow, i never knew it was an chip in the PS3 that gave backwards compatibility, lol i always figured it was emulation.wait, you mean they removed this chip to save cost im assuming and it didnt get cheaper? The original PS3s actually had the PS2 hardware in them, but later models removed it. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbandonedTrolley Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Here's the patent they have (I made a PDF so it's easier to read). :rofl: Typo in patent heading :) Start of the patent point 54 , PROCESSOR EMULATION USING FRAGMENT LEVEL TRANSALTION Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Here's the patent they have (I made a PDF so it's easier to read). i like how that pdf doesnt even have the word 'playstation' in it... the diagrams clearly refer to the PS2 and PS3 , the PS2 is referred to as "a main CPU with an attached Digital Signal Processor (DSP) or DSP-like processor with a seperate instruction memory" , and it calls the SPE's "secondary processing elements" Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted June 30, 2009 Author Subscriber² Share Posted June 30, 2009 wow, i never knew it was an chip in the PS3 that gave backwards compatibility, lol i always figured it was emulation.wait, you mean they removed this chip to save cost im assuming and it didnt get cheaper?b> The PS3 has shed $200 since release, $600 to $400. Original release fully hardware BC, next revisions part hardware/part software, next revision no BC. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Teej Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 i like how that pdf doesnt even have the word 'playstation' in it... the diagrams clearly refer to the PS2 and PS3 , the PS2 is referred to as "a main CPU with an attached Digital Signal Processor (DSP) or DSP-like processor with a seperate instruction memory" , and it calls the SPE's "secondary processing elements" This is to make sure they can use PS2 emulation on other devices then the PS3. For example, they may want to use it for the PS4, or a future gaming handheld or maybe even a mobile phone. Hell, they could even allow it to work on the PC if they wanted. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591211660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1406 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 It's coming....finally... Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591219002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmatic Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) This is to make sure they can use PS2 emulation on other devices then the PS3. For example, they may want to use it for the PS4, or a future gaming handheld or maybe even a mobile phone. Hell, they could even allow it to work on the PC if they wanted. i mean like, the diagrams clearly show a PS2 and a PS3 ... how can anything have an "emotion engine" connected to a "graphics synthesizer" as well as the DSP chip with its own RAM, and not be a PS2? but they dont refer to it at all, they dont even have the word 'playstation' in the article Edited July 1, 2009 by carmatic Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591219052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Teej Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 i mean like, the diagrams clearly show a PS2 and a PS3 ... how can anything have an "emotion engine" connected to a "graphics synthesizer" as well as the DSP chip with its own RAM, and not be a PS2? but they dont refer to it at all, they dont even have the word 'playstation' in the article I honestly think it's to cover their asses purely so, if there are other pieces of hardware with the EEGS in, then they can emulate that. Plus, they kinda need to go into detail, they can't just say "emulate the playstation 2", they need to go into specifics. There's no real need to list brand names as all that needs to be covered is the main hardware and the processes used. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591219208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhav Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Sony's Emotion Engine Patent Tells Us Nothing NewJune 30th, 2009 Interesting news has emerged this morning from SiliconEra, who have produced documents that reveal that Sony is in the process of patenting emulation of the PlayStation2 Emotion Engine chip for Cell-based platforms. That would be PS3 then, and perhaps its successor. Unfortunately, this tells us very little about Sony's plans with regards software emulation of PS2 software on the the PS3. While the technical diagrams released for the purposes of the patent are interesting, the fact is that any one owning a European launch PS3 already has the Emotion Engine emulated within the bowels of their machine. The problem remains the lack of support for the PS2's other main processor, the Graphics Synthesizer. This was the chip removed from the 40GB SKU, effectively putting the kibosh on backwards compatibility. This is not to say that full software emulation isn't in the works. There's simply too much money to be made from re-selling the rich and bountiful PS2 back-catalogue via PSN. Getting the emulation work done now would also stand Sony in good stead for whatever console succeeds PS3. Cell was built to be scalable with more PowerPC main cores and additional satellite SPU processors. Any software emulation for the custom PS2 architecture would simply carry over to the new console with minimal modification. As it is, rumours of the return of PS2 compatibility first cropped up when Sony started to advertise for a emulation-specific engineer, and there have been additional unconfirmed reports of the 40GB version of the PS3 TEST debug unit featuring work-in-progress PS2 backwards compatibility in various revisions of its firmware. There's even a Wobble-o-Vision YouTube video from a nice Spanish man apparently showing a retail 40GB PS3 stuck in factory service mode, yet capable of booting PS2 software. There are several such videos lurking around the internet, but none of them appear to show any actual 3D graphics at work, which would presumably be the core domain of the missing Graphics Synthesizer chip. Even assuming that Sony does get it working, software emulation will never be perfect, especially bearing in mind PS2's utilisation of ultra-bandwidth eDRAM, missing completely from the PS3 architecture. It may well be that backwards compatibility will return, but only deployed on a per-title basis. Fine for selected PSN downloads, not so good for people wanting to use their old disc-based games on PS3. All of which is speculation of course, and for the time being, the waiting game continues. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591219228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn00pie Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think they can make it work without that eDRAM or anything the PS2 had that the PS3 doesn't. I'd imagine we will hear about this at the same time as when we get a PS3 Slim. New PS3 (Slim) + GT5 bundle this Christmas ;) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591219256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Teej Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Man, that eDRAM is insanely fast. Just checked it out on Wikipedia. It will be pretty hard to do perfect emulation. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591219272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1406 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 The PS2 has, in some way, technically suprerior RAM? Who would have thought? I still find it hard to believe that the PS3 would have a hard time playing PS2 software. It's just a bit...odd. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591222000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted July 2, 2009 Author Subscriber² Share Posted July 2, 2009 The PS2 has, in some way, technically suprerior RAM? Who would have thought?I still find it hard to believe that the PS3 would have a hard time playing PS2 software. It's just a bit...odd. Look at the power needed to run emulators on the PC. We're talking dual/quad core, 4GB of ram, top end graphics cards and a lot of games still struggle to run. I don't even think things like the Saturn/Dreamcast are working that great on todays hardware (hard systems to emulate). Full software emulation is not easy by any means. Although you would think the official companies could do a better job than 3rd party homebrew devs, and that should be right. Sony did a good job of the PSP PS1 emulator, it's pretty much 95% perfect. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591222070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Veteran Posted July 2, 2009 Veteran Share Posted July 2, 2009 Look at the power needed to run emulators on the PC. We're talking dual/quad core, 4GB of ram, top end graphics cards.I don't even think things like the Saturn/Dreamcast are working that great on todays hardware. Full software emulation is not easy by any means. I dunno... GameTap's Dreamcast emulation seemed to run at the same speed as the console. I played many a game of Chu-Chu Rocket on there. :) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591222082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted July 2, 2009 Author Subscriber² Share Posted July 2, 2009 I dunno... GameTap's Dreamcast emulation seemed to run at the same speed as the console. I played many a game of Chu-Chu Rocket on there. :) Yeah but compatibility is wild, it's all over the scale. I'm pretty sure Chu-Chu Rocket isn't the most demanding Dreamcast game. The biggest issue for software emulators is compatibility. Sony will be expected to have high compatibility with the most popular games, not launch the PS2 emulator saying the only game you can play is Barbie's Horse Racing. Look at how Super Mario 64 was emulated nearly perfectly at first on the PC N64 emulators, but Zelda ran like a dog for quite a while. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/791018-sony-patents-emotion-engine-emulation-technology-for-cell-processors/#findComment-591222100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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