Fred Derf Veteran Posted January 8, 2010 Veteran Share Posted January 8, 2010 Of the last 15 threads that I have participated in, 5 threads are in staff-only sections and all of them relate to things mentioned in this thread one way or another. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 8, 2010 Subscriber² Share Posted January 8, 2010 Of the last 15 threads that I have participated in, 5 threads are in staff-only sections and all of them relate to things mentioned in this thread one way or another. Now to find the backdoor entrance, someones gotta be careless enough to leave it open :shiftyninja: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted January 8, 2010 Veteran Share Posted January 8, 2010 Now to find the backdoor entrance, someones gotta be careless enough to leave it open :shiftyninja: We'd better delete the Audioboxer forum then. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin-uk Veteran Posted January 8, 2010 Veteran Share Posted January 8, 2010 We'd better delete the Audioboxer forum then. but where will we put all the threads? I mean, there's hundreds of them! :shifty: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 8, 2010 Subscriber² Share Posted January 8, 2010 Ohhhh I know you guys are joking, but jeeez, Radish and DL have already admitted I think my names been mentioned a fair few times behind closed doors. I'll be glad to see that stopping, unless it's about something good ;) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethos Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How's the Sethos forum looking then >.> ? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdegree Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 So just keep an eye out ;) I prefer to keep my eye(s) in. Thank you very much. :whistle: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 8, 2010 Subscriber² Share Posted January 8, 2010 How's the Sethos forum looking then >.> ? I think it's a whole new board altogether. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592088638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinetix63 Veteran Posted January 9, 2010 Author Veteran Share Posted January 9, 2010 How's the Sethos forum looking then >.> ? we've ordered the new server for it. Just waiting for it to be delivered! The old one couldn't cope with the load. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592094300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogboy Administrators Posted January 10, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2010 You make some good PR statements, but I have yet to see anything of any substance at all from you, do you actually think that it is wrong to expect people to try and moderate fairly and evenly.? I am saying that the moderators do their best to be reasonable and fair but no system is perfect nor should perfection be the goal here. Hence, perfect is the enemy of good. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592096622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogboy Administrators Posted January 10, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2010 This is what I'm getting at with the uneven moderation. I have read so many times where you guys outright refuse to discuss any punishments given to other members. But you feel free to break that rule here as I've got on your bad side in this thread.But I know the answer to this will be 'I'm the owner'. Which is the same comment Frogboy gives when he threatens to ban users. I won't reply again because I don't wanna get banned. If you're looking for some sort of idealized world here, you won't find it. Life isn't fair. Mistakes will be made. Injustices will be committed. There is a saying that I think really suits this discussion: Don't sweat the small stuff. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592096644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+shift. MVC Posted January 10, 2010 MVC Share Posted January 10, 2010 And if there is no one to challenge the moderation, then there is no way for the forum experience to move forward in a positive manner. Might I note, Frogboy, that consistent moderation (yes, I know, given the circumstances) is not the same as moderating reasonably; at least in the manner that I've interpreted it as. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592097164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogboy Administrators Posted January 10, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2010 And if there is no one to challenge the moderation, then there is no way for the forum experience to move forward in a positive manner. Might I note, Frogboy, that consistent moderation (yes, I know, given the circumstances) is not the same as moderating reasonably; at least in the manner that I've interpreted it as. There are lots of ways to improve the forum experience -- that is what this discussion is about. In my opinion, the single most pressing way to move forward the forum experience is to start ejecting the toxic users. People visit Neowin mostly for the news - not the forums. I enjoy the forums as much as anyone here but in terms of paying the bills, it's the news articles that do it. We would love to bring in seasoned, experienced journalists to start writing articles and covering the news. As more than one journalist has told me already, there is no way they'd write for Neowin as long as the news comments are plagued with personal attacks, flaming, and insults - usually directed at the person who makes the news item. That sort of thing falls into the forums as well where some users are quick to insult the person rather than discuss the issue they disagree with. To me, trying to moderate the forums "evenly" is about as worthwhile as a goal as a police officer trying to hand out speeding tickets evenly. It's an admirable goal but it's not realistic. If you don't want to get warns or banned or what have you, the best way to do it is to not violate the rules. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592097930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrealistic Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 There is a saying that I think really suits this discussion: Don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe you should take your own advice when users aren't really attacking you, and yet you view it as a reason to threaten with bans and hand out warnings. If you don't want to get warns or banned or what have you, the best way to do it is to not violate the rules. Lead by example. If the owners antagonize and attack users, why should the users feel any reason to do the same? Hopefully you don't warn me again, for something that wasn't an attack, but merely something you didn't like hearing. You have the thinnest skin on these forums, but yet you also have the most power. You should just relax and not throw a tantrum when things don't exactly go your way. I don't mean this in a condescending manner, I am just talking to you as a human to a human. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592097950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran Posted January 10, 2010 Veteran Share Posted January 10, 2010 As more than one journalist has told me already, there is no way they'd write for Neowin as long as the news comments are plagued with personal attacks, flaming, and insults - usually directed at the person who makes the news item.? That's very interesting. I was on the News Staff a while back and, even though I'm not a seasoned journalist, it can be seriously off-putting having to deal with random attacks and all that rubbish. I remember when they got Calum in there to clean things up, which certainly helped.? I wonder, though, if having all comments on the news articles vetted by a moderator before they go live would work. Or maybe it would adversely affect the numbers of people reading the articles and commenting on them. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592097970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogboy Administrators Posted January 10, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2010 That's very interesting. I was on the News Staff a while back and, even though I'm not a seasoned journalist, it can be seriously off-putting having to deal with random attacks and all that rubbish. I remember when they got Calum in there to clean things up, which certainly helped.? You hit the nail on the head. Up and coming journalists, volunteers, or pros are not going to be enthused putting their time and effort on a news item only to have a bunch of people come saying how "stupid" the news poster is or "this isn't news" or what have you. I wonder, though, if having all comments on the news articles vetted by a moderator before they go live would work. Or maybe it would adversely affect the numbers of people reading the articles and commenting on them. I don't think that would be a good idea. It would add a lot of work for moderators, slow down the discussion in the comments. I'm more inclined to just eject users who can't behave themselves. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, on the Stardock forums we kick people out pretty quickly if they cross the line. There is no "warn" system. But the forums there are very active and very friendly overall. Neowin, with its warn system, can do it far better. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrealistic Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Maybe you could have a News Section, where all news is posted at the same time as the actual post, and people can post comments there. Each News post could auto generate the link to the forum and add it. "Discuss here". This would make posting on news posts probably go down, but then it would be easier for the moderating to occur. I do think News Comments have gotten out of hand and I don't even think I've ever posted one thing on there for that reason. Edit: I just realized this is my one year anniversary on here! Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogboy Administrators Posted January 10, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2010 Maybe you should take your own advice when users aren't really attacking you, and yet you view it as a reason to threaten with bans and hand out warnings. If someone is addressing me personally rather than the message then they are, by definition, making it personal. You got into trouble because rather than disagreeing with the article you instead went after me personally. Lead by example. If the owners antagonize and attack users, why should the users feel any reason to do the same? I don't make any promises to lead by example. I'm human. I can only do the best I can. Hopefully you don't warn me again, for something that wasn't an attack, but merely something you didn't like hearing. You have the thinnest skin on these forums, but yet you also have the most power. You should just relax and not throw a tantrum when things don't exactly go your way. I don't mean this in a condescending manner, I am just talking to you as a human to a human. I am sure to you I seem to have a thin skin. I simply have a very low threshold of tolerance when it comes to someone insulting me. If I make a thread talking about how good the Xbox 360 is and you like the Playstation 3 better the ideal way is to say why you think the PS3 is better or the Xbox 360 is worse. The less ideal way would be to say I'm "out of touch" or start going after me personally "how typical of you to not address every point I brought up". I think part of the issue some people run into is a lack of empathy. People often behave very differently online than they would in person. Even in your above quote you say "relax and don't throw a tantrum when things don't exactly go your way". Is that really the best way you could have expressed your opinion? If you were at my house would you be saying "don't throw a tantrum" to my face? And if so, would you be really surprised if you were shown the door? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappy Veteran Posted January 10, 2010 Veteran Share Posted January 10, 2010 That's very interesting. I was on the News Staff a while back and, even though I'm not a seasoned journalist, it can be seriously off-putting having to deal with random attacks and all that rubbish. I remember when they got Calum in there to clean things up, which certainly helped.?I wonder, though, if having all comments on the news articles vetted by a moderator before they go live would work. Or maybe it would adversely affect the numbers of people reading the articles and commenting on them. I miss writing news for Neowin :( but one thing I hated was the comments and the stupid 1 star rating because they voted who you were rather then the news. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATGC Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I miss writing news for Neowin :(but one thing I hated was the comments and the stupid 1 star rating because they voted who you were rather then the news. That's not very nice of them. :( Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_onion Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I miss writing news for Neowin :(but one thing I hated was the comments and the stupid 1 star rating because they voted who you were rather then the news. Why would people give your articles 1 star rating? I thought everyone liked you..... And do you really care what random people on the internet say about your work? As long as you're happy with it that's all that should matter. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrossa Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 There are lots of ways to improve the forum experience -- that is what this discussion is about. In my opinion, the single most pressing way to move forward the forum experience is to start ejecting the toxic users. People visit Neowin mostly for the news - not the forums. I enjoy the forums as much as anyone here but in terms of paying the bills, it's the news articles that do it. We would love to bring in seasoned, experienced journalists to start writing articles and covering the news. As more than one journalist has told me already, there is no way they'd write for Neowin as long as the news comments are plagued with personal attacks, flaming, and insults - usually directed at the person who makes the news item. That sort of thing falls into the forums as well where some users are quick to insult the person rather than discuss the issue they disagree with. To me, trying to moderate the forums "evenly" is about as worthwhile as a goal as a police officer trying to hand out speeding tickets evenly. It's an admirable goal but it's not realistic. If you don't want to get warns or banned or what have you, the best way to do it is to not violate the rules. I actually stopped reading the News comments on the basis that nothing really was added to the original article. For me i'd just do the News and link the article to a forum to discuss. It's the same on other sites with an open News comment section. Some articles will attract 100's of completely irrelevant remarks. I'd also add some more tech news not directly computer related to draw in a more varied crowd of various disciplines of related technology. For example (just a random example not a suggestion) News about machines that function largely by means of computer hard/software, Robotica, Quantum Mechanics, Neurology. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrealistic Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 If someone is addressing me personally rather than the message then they are, by definition, making it personal. You got into trouble because rather than disagreeing with the article you instead went after me personally.I don't make any promises to lead by example. I'm human. I can only do the best I can. I am sure to you I seem to have a thin skin. I simply have a very low threshold of tolerance when it comes to someone insulting me. If I make a thread talking about how good the Xbox 360 is and you like the Playstation 3 better the ideal way is to say why you think the PS3 is better or the Xbox 360 is worse. The less ideal way would be to say I'm "out of touch" or start going after me personally "how typical of you to not address every point I brought up". I think part of the issue some people run into is a lack of empathy. People often behave very differently online than they would in person. Even in your above quote you say "relax and don't throw a tantrum when things don't exactly go your way". Is that really the best way you could have expressed your opinion? If you were at my house would you be saying "don't throw a tantrum" to my face? And if so, would you be really surprised if you were shown the door? We are both wrong. Without talking about another thread with you in this thread I will say this. I genuinely felt that you being away from your product for 2+ years as the Product Manager did make you "out of touch". It's an opinion, not a personal threat. I felt that the direction you were taking with your product wasn't the correct one and I wanted to tell you. The greatest thing about you, Brad, is that you are engaged with the community. Being the CEO of Stardock and a Moderator here is really a blessing. You have to realize though that not everyone is going to hold back just because you're in a position of power here. I maintain that it was an opinion, but again, I'm trying to give you options to better your company. I didn't feel it was a true insult and remember, you insulted yourself a few times in that thread, using stereotypes of "Frogboy being X". I respect you, whether or not I said it. Maybe you are so used to people truly attacking you, that when someone slightly does, you put up a wall. I'm no psychologist, but I have a feeling there is a bit of truth to this. And yes, if you were throwing things and calling me an "ass" like you did, and threatened to kick me out of your house PERMANENTLY and vow for me to never return, not only would I say that to your face, I would laugh and find a house that isn't made of glass, with rocks as foundation. To continue though, you do need a thicker skin on here. You rarely post on here and when you do, things don't necessarily go the way I think you want. If I did that, I'm sure I would get annoyed to and quite possibly do the same thing. As people have said already, we are human, however humans do insult other humans. I am the type that I say what I say off and online. I have been fired once for my own personal opinions and I have no intention of ever holding back when I feel I have something to say. This is why I own my own business. :) With that said though, your job here is to be like other moderators. You need to lighten that warning/ban hammer finger. I think this does more harm at dividing the community than the users themselves. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_onion Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 For me i'd just do the News and link the article to a forum to discuss. Yeah, this. Plus it would mean Tom W wouldn't need to keep closing threads in BPN because they're on the main page. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappy Veteran Posted January 10, 2010 Veteran Share Posted January 10, 2010 That's not very nice of them. :( yeah people suck! :p Why would people give your articles 1 star rating? I thought everyone liked you.....And do you really care what random people on the internet say about your work? As long as you're happy with it that's all that should matter. to be honest alot of people don't like me! :p Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/862112-cleaning-up-the-community/page/14/#findComment-592098200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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