It's not a conspiracy

[hdood]

Im sick of looking through the videos I have already posted, watch them, you will see the reports of people saying firecrackers, and bang bang bang bang like 4th of July etc

So what? Hearing "bang" noises does not equal rigged explosives. In fact, of the general public, virtually no one has any idea what real explosives actually sound like--especially not those used in demolitions (but wait, I thought it was thermite, not bombs?). When a layperson says something "sounded like a bomb," they just mean there was a loud noise. It's dishonest to over-analyze witness statements in the way you are doing. Not that I expect you to understand this.

And what else do buildings have if not free will.... they not machines, they just go where ever their structure allows them

They generally go the path of least resistance... down.

Yea ok gravity, but their structure dictates which way gravity can pull them first

As I've explained, the structure below the point where the collapse initiated could not support the load. That means it went down. It's not difficult.

[.Markus]

Where...show me? I gave you the links to the Popular Mechanics article...why not give me something that directly debunks the article?

Just think you scored a big fat "F". Once again, you failed to bring anything up which directly counters the article(s). Saying "4 random blokes" couldn't hijack a plane doesn't cut it. Try again! :laugh:

See, this is why it is hard to argue with conspiracy theorist. You can get so emotionally invested in your own views that you start to lose interest in the facts (or choose to ignore).

Concur 100%! Saying four people can't possibly hijack an airplane, it's like saying Tim McVeigh couldn't possibly have done the '97 Oklahoma bombing on his own or that any of the simultaneous hijackings performed by liberation of Palestine was also infeasible.....

[Phenom II]

So what? Hearing "bang" noises does not equal rigged explosives. In fact, of the general public, virtually no one has any idea what real explosives actually sound like--especially not those used in demolitions (but wait, I thought it was thermite, not bombs?). When a layperson says something "sounded like a bomb," they just mean there was a loud noise. It's dishonest to over-analyze witness statements in the way you are doing. Not that I expect you to understand this.

They generally go the path of least resistance... down.

As I've explained, the structure below the point where the collapse initiated could not support the load. That means it went down. It's not difficult.

Excuse me ?

There is absolutely no need to make this personal, you dont see me taking shots at you or anyone else do you?

This thread is about what each of us believe, not lowering ourselves to personal digs because we don't like what the other person is saying

[hdood]

Concur 100%! Saying four people can't possibly hijack an airplane, it's like saying Tim McVeigh couldn't possibly have done the '97 Oklahoma bombing on his own or that any of the simultaneous hijackings performed by liberation of Palestine was also infeasible.....

But the conspiracy theorists believe that hitting a building with a plane cannot possibly result in it collapsing, meaning every floor had to be carefully rigged with explosives. They also believe it would be impossible to hijack a plane in the first place and that the big brave pilots would just punch the hijackers in the face and go "yeehaw!" They also believe it's not possible to fly an airliner at low altitudes, meaning a plane couldn't have flown into the Pentagon (I kid you not, this is an actual conspiracy theorist belief), that the Pentagon had advanced defense systems, and so on.

[PreKe]

Im sick of looking through the videos I have already posted, watch them, you will see the reports of people saying firecrackers, and bang bang bang bang like 4th of July etc

Firecrackers explode randomly, chaotically, and extremely fast. Controlled demolitions have steady, rhythmical explosions timed to perfection. But again, please show me these witnesses.

And what else do buildings have if not free will.... they not machines, they just go where ever their structure allows them

Buildings behave according to the laws of physics. They do not have free will.

[hdood]

Excuse me ?

I apologize for something that could be construed as a personal attack, and I retract it. Sometimes I go too far. Sorry. Now, how about responding to the actual points I made.

[Phenom II]

So what? Hearing "bang" noises does not equal rigged explosives. In fact, of the general public, virtually no one has any idea what real explosives actually sound like--especially not those used in demolitions (but wait, I thought it was thermite, not bombs?). When a layperson says something "sounded like a bomb," they just mean there was a loud noise. It's dishonest to over-analyze witness statements in the way you are doing. Not that I expect you to understand this.

They generally go the path of least resistance... down.

As I've explained, the structure below the point where the collapse initiated could not support the load. That means it went down. It's not difficult.

Apology accepted.

I dont know about thermite, I watched a demolition test where they used Copper plates with many small explosives all the way round the edge of the plate, when detonated, it sends a jet of liquid copper right through the steel chopping it clean in half

As for the witnesses description, what else could they be describing ? What else inside those towers could make such a distinctive sound that they identified over all the other noises ?

Yes they go the least resistive way, but if one side of the building was strong, and one side was weak, it would fall the weakest side

In all the videos, I have not seen an explanation as to why the building did nothing to slow down the collapse, the bottom half of both buildings, were after-all undamaged

[hdood]

As for the witnesses description, what else could they be describing ? What else inside those towers could make such a distinctive sound that they identified over all the other noises ?

I suspect there are many things that would go "bang" as a building that large collapsed. Probably even trapped air. I haven't bothered to really look into it though, I'm just saying that people hearing noises in no way means explosives were planted.

In all the videos, I have not seen an explanation as to why the building did nothing to slow down the collapse, the bottom half of both buildings, were after-all undamaged

Again you keep repeating this stuff about the undamaged part of the building, even though I've told you several times why they could not support the load of the top part. I even told you the exact numbers. That means the bottom part failed before the top had a chance to pivot and just tumble off. It also meant it could not significantly slow the ever-increasing mass moving downward. You have to remember that a building is not a solid block like a tree. It's mostly air and interconnected structure.

[PreKe]

So you are saying that there were explosion sounds from controlled demolition, and yet you say that they used Thermite, which does not make such sounds?

What were witnesses describing? I thought you said they heard explosions. So again, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

[Phenom II]

So you are saying that there were explosion sounds from controlled demolition, and yet you say that they used Thermite, which does not make such sounds?

What were witnesses describing? I thought you said they heard explosions. So again, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Who me ?

I never mentioned thermite

I suspect there are many things that would go "bang" as a building that large collapsed. Probably even trapped air. I haven't bothered to really look into it though, I'm just saying that people hearing noises in no way means explosives were planted.

Again you keep repeating this stuff about the undamaged part of the building, even though I've told you several times why they could not support the load of the top part. I even told you the exact numbers. That means the bottom part failed before the top had a chance to pivot and just tumble off. It also meant it could not significantly slow the ever-increasing mass moving downward. You have to remember that a building is not a solid block like a tree. It's mostly air and interconnected structure.

Sorry I dont remember you mentioning the exact numbers, but why would the bottom fail before the top fell, the weight of the plane ?

[.Markus]

Apology accepted.

I dont know about thermite, I watched a demolition test where they used Copper plates with many small explosives all the way round the edge of the plate, when detonated, it sends a jet of liquid copper right through the steel chopping it clean in half

As for the witnesses description, what else could they be describing ? What else inside those towers could make such a distinctive sound that they identified over all the other noises ?

Yes they go the least resistive way, but if one side of the building was strong, and one side was weak, it would fall the weakest side

In all the videos, I have not seen an explanation as to why the building did nothing to slow down the collapse, the bottom half of both buildings, were after-all undamaged

This slow motion video shows it kind of clear in my opinion.

The first south tower had it's impact from the plane on the left side (camera POW), so when the structure can't hold the load anymore you can actually see the top part cringing over it self like you would expect a tree would topple over after a lumber jacker has chopped out a portion out underneath.

This then escalates the force of impact onto the stories below, causing a sad domino effect. It's quite fortunate however that the planes did not hit even further below, as that would have weakened the structure even earlier due to extra weight added.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Im sick of looking through the videos I have already posted, watch them, you will see the reports of people saying firecrackers, and bang bang bang bang like 4th of July etc

And what else do buildings have if not free will.... they not machines, they just go where ever their structure allows them

So, it is impossible for these "firecrackers" and "bang bang bang" to be the result of the structure or parts of the structure failing?

You also really believe that explosive were planted at the same area where the planes hit? It went something like this I guess...."So, plane 1 you need to hit WTC 1 between floors x-y and plane 2 you hit WTC 2 between floors x-y."

If the WTC had been set up for controlled detonation...surely the office workers would have noticed something out of place...like missing sheetrock revealing steel columns or a "Age difference" between new and old sheetrock.

Also...how would all the wiring required to detonate the <insert explosive type here> not get damaged from the impact and subsequent fire? Oh...I know! Each explosive was radio controlled! :woot:

See...the whole controlled demolition just doesn't add up.

Yes they go the least resistive way, but if one side of the building was strong, and one side was weak, it would fall the weakest side

In all the videos, I have not seen an explanation as to why the building did nothing to slow down the collapse, the bottom half of both buildings, were after-all undamaged

So, you are saying that in this image...the South tower is not starting to collapse on its weakest side? Sure as heck looks like it did to me.

[hdood]

Sorry I dont remember you mentioning the exact numbers, but why would the bottom fail before the top fell, the weight of the plane ?

It didn't fail before, it failed as it fell. In order for the top half to just pivot and fall over, the structure below would have to support the mass for the entire duration of this process.

An intact floor could support at most about 29 million pounds. Each floor had an average load of 80 pounds per square feet (more for the mechanical floors), multiply that by the size of each floor (3,000 sqft) you get 2.5 million. 29m/2.5m then gets you 11.6 floors. Since the load was dynamic (remember that the falling mass had downward momentum which increased with each new floor that joined the falling mass), the dynamic amplification factor (2) comes into play, which gives you a total of 11.6/2=5.8 falling floors that could be supported.

In reality it was probably less than that, but even with those ideal numbers, there were still more than six floors falling. That meant the path of least resistance actually became straight down before the top half could just topple over.

[Joe User]

So, it is impossible for these "firecrackers" and "bang bang bang" to be the result of the structure or parts of the structure failing?

Again, I was there. I heard the banging, and it sounded like the floors collapsing. I come from a family of engineers, and I can tell you it was in absolutely no way controlled.

Also, anyone who says this building collapsed in on itself is an idiot. Damage to surrounding buildings was severe. Just because it didn't fall over at a 45 degree angle doesn't mean it collapsed straight down.

[s1k3sT]

They generally go the path of least resistance... down.

LOL, that's the path of greatest resistance!

[s1k3sT]

There's nothing "1984" about it. It's a specific term used for a specific thing. You need to stop trying to redefine terms that are already perfectly defined.

Like I've already said once, I'm not redefining it, I'm pointing out that it's already been redefined!

[hdood]

LOL, that's the path of greatest resistance!

No, it is not.

Like I've already said once, I'm not redefining it, I'm pointing out that it's already been redefined!

And it's been defined correctly. I gave you the Oxford dictionary definition of the word theory, and it in no way supports you at all.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

LOL, that's the path of greatest resistance!

wait...what? :blink:

[s1k3sT]

Where...show me? I gave you the links to the Popular Mechanics article...why not give me something that directly debunks the article?

Furthermore, your nitpicking over the definition of "Conspiracy Theory" is laughable...albeit moronic.

We don't even have to debunk the article itself, popular mechanics debunked themselves. Here's how:

Cathleen Black the president of Hearst Magazines, who is married to a former member of the CIA and DOD, replaced much of the staff, including the long time editor and chief in staff. One of the new members of the staff is Benjamin Chertoff. Benjamin Chertoff is the self proclaimed "senior researcher" for the 2005 article about 9/11 on which it's 2009 book is based upon. Benjamin Chertoff is the cousin of the secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff. This isn't related, not directly, but Michael Chertoff was a coauthor of the patriot act.

No, it is not.

And it's been defined correctly. I gave you the Oxford dictionary definition of the word theory, and it in no way supports you at all.

LOL, that's because it's been redefined already! Can you honestly not see what I'm saying, or are you trolling me?

Oh BTW, yes it is the path of greatest resistance.

[PreKe]

Phenom II failed to address this:

"Firecrackers explode randomly, chaotically, and extremely fast. Controlled demolitions have steady, rhythmical explosions timed to perfection. But again, please show me these witnesses."

[Phenom II]

Im out of this discussion, its giving me a headache, I already said watch the videos I posted for the firecracker reference

[PreKe]

What videos? Link, please.

And regardless of your firecracker video: "Firecrackers explode randomly, chaotically, and extremely fast. Controlled demolitions have steady, rhythmical explosions timed to perfection."

[s1k3sT]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2002/jun/16/features.magazine57

On 11 September, while Al-Qaeda's planes slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the Carlyle Group hosted a conference at a Washington hotel. Among the guests of honour was a valued investor: Shafig bin Laden, brother to Osama.

I wonder what Bin Laden's brother and the Carlyle Group were meeting about. I also wonder whether or not Bush senior was there because he is, or at least was, a key member in the Carlyle Group...

Why did Bush Jr. lie about seeing the first plane crash on tv the day it happened?! The tape of the first plane crash didn't surface until the next day...

How did the government's own anthrax get mailed to people without an insider?!

Just a coincidence that Marvin Bush, George W's brother, was the director of Securecom which was in charge of the security at the wtc, united airlines, and dulles airport.

[SyntaxError]

Maybe the whole idea that 9/11 is a conspiracy, is itself a conspiracy.

It's all a plot by the Man to keep us down!

Remember, it's not paranoia unless they really are out to get you. :shiftyninja:

[iamawesomewicked]

Maybe the whole idea that 9/11 is a conspiracy, is itself a conspiracy.

It's all a plot by the Man to keep us down!

Remember, it's not paranoia unless they really are out to get you. :shiftyninja:

Maybe the whole idea that 9/11 is a conspiracy, is itself a conspiracy, is a conspiracy! Holy crap.. I think we're onto something.