Board stats for November 2010

[Steven P. Administrators]

Board Stats for November 2010

NOV '10: 1,215 registrations, 3,705 new topics, 60,178 replies, 1,904 conversations and 1,806,357 topic views.

Top 5 forums for November

position, (last month) name (*) = new entry

1. (2) General Discussion

2. (1) Back Page News

3. (3) Jokes & Funny Stuff

4. (4) Hardware Hangout

5. (5) Gamers Hangout

Slight improvement over October, despite one day less in the month, good going!

Not sure what happened on this day, massive amount of PM's sent

[tiagosilva29]

Not sure what happened on this day, massive amount of PM's sent

The guyanese shadow finance minister died on that day.

[Steven P. Administrators]

The guyanese shadow finance minister died on that day.

Ah that explains it :unsure:

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

Charts!

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Hm, the November stats aren't as good as I thought they would be. May the next months be greener.

[Growled Member]

Slightly better than October but nothing to really brag about.

[sudo]

The interesting thing is, for the last five months (at least), those stats were a disaster AND nothing "apparently" has been done to change the situation. On the contrary, all I see is:

- A moderation system that is getting worse everyday.

- The promotion of spamming threads at the expense of quality threads/discussions.

That, among other things, lead to people looking somewhere else for whatever they want to discuss (be it technical or otherwise)

If you really aspire for a great community, make it all about the vital element: the members. Ask for their opinions and make them part of the decision process (obviously not all the decisions, but still).

[Chasethebase Reporter]

I would say the game threads have been artificially inflating those numbers. Hence GD's position at #1.

I still stand by keeping the game threads out the way of the main discussions.

[Steven P. Administrators]

The interesting thing is, for the last five months (at least), those stats were a disaster AND nothing "apparently" has been done to change the situation. On the contrary, all I see is:

- A moderation system that is getting worse everyday.

- The promotion of spamming threads at the expense of quality threads/discussions.

That, among other things, lead to people looking somewhere else for whatever they want to discuss (be it technical or otherwise)

If you really aspire for a great community, make it all about the vital element: the members. Ask for their opinions and make them part of the decision process (obviously not all the decisions, but still).

Why should we block something that is obviously popular (game threads)? The community steers the community by posting.

Plus unregistered guests don't see the off-topic posts, they only see the technical related ones, which is a form of promotion in itself. Members can decide to block all the off-topic stuff in User Settings as well.

The other thing is that in the ten years we've been online, all of the (extra, off topic) forums have been added by request and we've gone to great lengths to keep them away from the proper tech areas.

I think our stats mirror the twitter & facebook's of the world, many of our staff say that social feeds get much more attention than traditional forums, and we're currently working on a way to bring those together, firstly by upgrading to 3.1 and eventually we want to do custom forums by building off the success of the main page rewrite that took place in January. Comments and social sharing has shot up since we moved to Ignition, we want to replicate this in the forums too, but we're a bit limited with IPB.

As far as moderation goes, I don't know if there are problems there.. I remember a time when it was much worse!

[Shaun N.]

During the war

[sudo]

Why should we block something that is obviously popular (game threads)? The community steers the community by posting.

Plus unregistered guests don't see the off-topic posts, they only see the technical related ones, which is a form of promotion in itself. Members can decide to block all the off-topic stuff in User Settings as well.

The other thing is that in the ten years we've been online, all of the (extra, off topic) forums have been added by request and we've gone to great lengths to keep them away from the proper tech areas.

I think our stats mirror the twitter & facebook's of the world, many of our staff say that social feeds get much more attention than traditional forums, and we're currently working on a way to bring those together, firstly by upgrading to 3.1 and eventually we want to do custom forums by building off the success of the main page rewrite that took place in January. Comments and social sharing has shot up since we moved to Ignition, we want to replicate this in the forums too, but we're a bit limited with IPB.

As far as moderation goes, I don't know if there are problems there.. I remember a time when it was much worse!

I didn't say you "should block" anything. It's not my place to tell you how to run your business, I'm just a member of this community and I'm voicing my opinions, feel free to censor them if they come off "unecessary". To the point, I said there's a trend of promoting spam threads AT THE EXPENSE of quality threads. Let me try to better explain.

We have seen threads started by members AND sometimes (plenty of times) by staff that serve(d) no purpose but contribute to the race of getting to 10M posts. That doesn't seem like a bad idea since (like you said) those threads are "popular". Still:

- Those threads are annoying (minispy/spy) for those who have opted not to filter out non-tech content, but still don't want all that spam.

- Those threads reflect a member base that is shifting from being more tech oriented to being... well, basically 4chan.

- Those threads (with too much replies) end up breaking basic community rules, and worse, often are disregarded by the moderation, obviously because "we have to get to 10M posts".

And, on the contrary of what you claim, guests DO see those off-topic/spam threads, and isn't much of a good promotion. And if members could filter out those spam threads (they can't), new members don't necesseraly know that they could, or just find it easy to google another place for their questions/tech ramblings.

Probably you have added those extra/off-topic forums on request, but it doesn't meant it was a good decision given the stats we have at hand (jokes and funny stuff forums being more active than tech forums, for instance)

And of course twitter & Facebook are eating out off your member base, since you are immitating twitter and facebook in terms of CONTENT (spam and useless [game] threads). If you had focused on promoting the tech side of your forums and website, you wouldn't have to worry about twitter or facebook.

As of the moderation, there are indeed problems, you just don't see them because you are not listening to your members' constant complaints about it. If you did, this would've been a great community.

[Chasethebase Reporter]

~snip

Described it better than I ever could, I agree with what you've said there.

[Shaun N.]

He speaks unbiased truth

[Growled Member]

As of the moderation, there are indeed problems, you just don't see them because you are not listening to your members' constant complaints about it. If you did, this would've been a great community.

May I ask what problems you see with the moderation here?

[sudo]

May I ask what problems you see with the moderation here?

That would require that I go into lots of specifics to make my points credible. Which isn't possible since 1) that will require time 2) it would get me in trouble obviously.

But, I'm sure you're aware there are constant complaints, both against specific staff members (letting their own personal viewpoints interfere with staying objective when on duty), and against the entire process not being transparent nor consistent. And those complaints got nothing but the usual half-assed treatment: "thread closed, PM a staff".

If you created a thread called "what do you think of the moderation system", you'd get more input than I could possibly provide alone. Still, I'll throw in a very simple example that actually illustrates to a certain extent what I'm talking about; take a look here: https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/953166-does-neowin-delete-topics-that-do-not-comply-with-its-point-of-view/page__view__findpost__p__593378094

The OP started a thread in "Jokes and funny stuff" in which he called WP7 a pos. The thread got deleted, and the OP never got an explanation as of why it got deleted. He PMed a staff and got no response. Even started a thread to get some answers, and got the typical treatment, and -as if that's not humiliating enough- an Admin shows in and "explains" why the thread got deleted: "I saw the thread and you described the phone as a "POS" citing flamebaiting which is clearly defined within our rules, also the circumstances of how the SD Card came to that state is pretty dubious.".

I'm sorry, isn't it called "Jokes and funny Stuff"? Something you might not find funny (probably being a MS fanboy) others might actually find freaking hilarious. Probably I should point out to all those threads in the same forum making fun of Christians, Muslims (inciting flame-bait, hatred...) .. and when a member of those religions complains, he's told to "get a sense of humor". This inconsistency extends to all forums, I'm just showcasing this example as it is the most recent that comes to mind.

[Shaun N.]

A simple edit of the title would have done there, not a full deletion of the thread.

/sarcasm on

If Neobond doesn't like it its gone, No discussion - Its "His Forum" after all

[Nick H. Supervisor]

I'm confused about one section of your argument where you seem to contradict yourself. On the one hand you think this should move back to being a more technology-oriented forum, but at the same time you don't want to use the filter that blocks all of the non-tech threads?

As for the point of moderation, I think it's a hard area to look at. Like with any job, different people approach it in different ways. The rules don't (and indeed cannot) offer advice for every situation that will occur, and it's left to the individual to decide whether something is right or wrong. If I understand correctly, Neowin has a secret forum hidden to all but moderators+, and these closed/removed threads appear there. The moderation team can then look at the thread and agree or disagree with the original moderator's decision to move it.

The "constant complaints" you talk about aren't as numerous as you might think. Given the size of the community, the majority of the community agrees with these decisions. But obviously because the moderator's decision is somewhat final, you don't hear people's replies of "thanks for ending that." However, when a moderator's decision goes against that of an individual, they feel more inclined to stand up and have their voice heard. Because of this it may seem like there is a lot of negativity towards the moderators, when in fact there isn't in the grander scheme of things.

Of course, this could be just the way that I have seen things in my time here, others might disagree with me.

[Steven P. Administrators]

It's impossible to please everyone, but I do try my best with Shaun!

[Knife Party]

^ its impossible yes, for the effort kudos

[LittleNeutrino Veteran]

With my own site I have learned that it is indeed impossible to please everyone so my concept is not to try, I have a direction in which I want my product to go and I am going to work on that, if there is a problem i will address it however, if 10 of 1000 people do not like something, then it is not worth messing with.

[Vice]

I think our stats mirror the twitter & facebook's of the world, many of our staff say that social feeds get much more attention than traditional forums, and we're currently working on a way to bring those together, firstly by upgrading to 3.1 and eventually we want to do custom forums by building off the success of the main page rewrite that took place in January. Comments and social sharing has shot up since we moved to Ignition, we want to replicate this in the forums too, but we're a bit limited with IPB.

As far as moderation goes, I don't know if there are problems there.. I remember a time when it was much worse!

To be honest, other tech related sites that focus on the tech are doing very well. EVGA Forum, Ars Technica, Hexus, HardOCP

Just to name a few. All these sites focus heavily on computers. And most of them actually have different sections for different hardware. On Neowin if you wanna talk about computer hardware there is just 1 forum and it gets about 5-10 new topics per day. On those forums I listed there is like 100 threads per day on hardware alone.

You ask a seriously complicated question on Neowin about hardware or Software and you won't get many great replies if any at all. I asked a question about 10Gb Ethernet networking and all the replies were like 'They make those?' I see the same threads about RAID where there is a lot of confusion. You ask the same questions on HardOCP or ArsTechnica and you'll have several pages of good well thought out information by a seasoned and experienced userbase. I think that hasn't happened here because those users don't just go to those forums to chat with people they go there for the latest reviews, news and information about the technology sector and Neowin doesn't review computer hardware they link to TechSpot (which is often a month or 2 after a product launches) and those reviews don't hit the front page often anyway.

Apart from that there is something else I think Neowin needs is Build Logs. Members make a thread and they show off a new computer build they are doing in a log style as the weeks go by the modding or purchasing of components is made and documented. I made such a thread on Neowin of my high-end water cooling build and it was well received, but I don't often see those here (maybe 2-3 threads other than my own from what I've seen) the forums above have hundreds of such logs especially HardOCP, it attracts users because they can see hardware they might want to buy actually being used in a system.

The great thing about Neowin is the forum software it looks awesome and it works. All of the other forums I mentioned do not look as good as Neowin does. And I think if you did more reviews of products (Like those sites) you would attract the computer enthusiasts and the tech stuff would increase. I believe in Neowin I like the forum mainly because of the software but I do like some of the users. I have been here a long time with a lot of posts and I do believe in the forum. I've given away serial codes to games on here like with my 22 page Mafia 2 giveaway: https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/934328-1-free-mafia-ii-code-to-neowin-members-winner-announced/ and I've posted important news for other users when it counted (Like BFG shutting down and not honoring future warranties).

Just having a forum with a front page isn't enough, social networking isn't something you should be messing around with unless you want to create a forum that is all about discussing life stuff (hint: that is what people do on social networking) people want tech news and reviews that is what you should focus on if you want to cultivate a tech forum.

[Shaun N.]

It's impossible to please everyone, but I do try my best with Shaun!

I appreciate every scrap of it.

[Growled Member]

As for the point of moderation, I think it's a hard area to look at. Like with any job, different people approach it in different ways. The rules don't (and indeed cannot) offer advice for every situation that will occur, and it's left to the individual to decide whether something is right or wrong. If I understand correctly, Neowin has a secret forum hidden to all but moderators+, and these closed/removed threads appear there. The moderation team can then look at the thread and agree or disagree with the original moderator's decision to move it.

The "constant complaints" you talk about aren't as numerous as you might think. Given the size of the community, the majority of the community agrees with these decisions. But obviously because the moderator's decision is somewhat final, you don't hear people's replies of "thanks for ending that." However, when a moderator's decision goes against that of an individual, they feel more inclined to stand up and have their voice heard. Because of this it may seem like there is a lot of negativity towards the moderators, when in fact there isn't in the grander scheme of things.

Of course, this could be just the way that I have seen things in my time here, others might disagree with me.

You are quite correct. A lot of posts are discussed by the staff in our hidden forum before we take action. I remember the tread mentioned as an example and we discussed it and thought it was over the line. We have a lot of people here from different backgrounds, and what one person finds funny, another person doesn't. We have to strive for a middle ground here, and no matter what we do someone will be unhappy. My own personal opinion is I'd rather see a few members unhappy than have a thread turn into a major flame war.

The OP started a thread in "Jokes and funny stuff" in which he called WP7 a pos. The thread got deleted, and the OP never got an explanation as of why it got deleted. He PMed a staff and got no response. Even started a thread to get some answers, and got the typical treatment, and -as if that's not humiliating enough- an Admin shows in and "explains" why the thread got deleted: "I saw the thread and you described the phone as a "POS" citing flamebaiting which is clearly defined within our rules, also the circumstances of how the SD Card came to that state is pretty dubious.".

I know we sometimes make mistakes and sometimes come across the wrong way. We are almost human after all. This is one of those circumstances where people just honestly have different tastes in humor. Also, when someone PMs a mod, the best thing to do is have patience. Sometimes it takes a bit to get back to you. If someone doesn't get back to you in a day or so, PM someone else. We are not online every day. The worse thing anyone can do is to start a thread questioning a mods decision on the board. That is just asking for trouble.