Why are MMO's, MMO-like?

[Richard Hammond]

Just been sat thinking. Ive been playing Red Dead Redemption and im really enjoying it so far there is so much to do random people coming up to you for help, sharpshooter/survivalist/treasure hunter challenges etc.. which got me thinking why are MMO's all cookie cutter, they are pretty much the same with similar game mechanics just with a different skin on. Sure they try and innovate by adding unique features over each other but at heart they are still the same.

In Red Dead you can kill someone in one or two shots, in most MMO's you have to click on the thing you want to attack then press a button and watch the little health bar decline and numbers appear over their heads making it a chore just kill one monster which takes a lot longer to kill in an MMO than it would in a regular game, and i dont just mean multiplayer as in the thing that gets tacked onto a single player game.

Why cant these big open world games like GTA and Red Dead be MMOs, have a single player feel but with the scope of an MMO.

I dont know if you guys can understand what im talking about but you can tell an MMO from a regular game because they all have the same 'feel' to them.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

MMO games are designed to make the player spend as much time as possible without getting bored. Why? Well, the answer is quite simple. Most MMO games have a monthly payment model and often times that requires developers to create "chores" that players must do in order to progress further. Their goal is to keep players occupied with repetitive actions in the hopes of making them subscribe again and again. Imagine the amount of subscribers they'd lose if you could create a character in World of Warcraft and level up to 85 in a week of moderate playing. As for the 'feel' you mentioned, I think you're referring to "grinding" (which is repetitive gameplay).

You're not alone though. It'd be nice to play games like Grand Theft Auto 4 or Red Dead Redemption with hundreds of players.

[Richard Hammond]

I understand what you are saying i mean that why cant i run around shooting people in two shots rather than clicking on something pressing attack and waiting for the life bar to go down. Ive played WoW, LotRO, D&D, Startrek Online, etc.. and they all have the same MMO feel, a game that still had chore quests and things but felt like a single player sandbox game would be a killer.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

It's all part of the master design to keep players hooked. If players could go around killing other players or non-playable characters easily, then the game would get boring quickly. Instead, they make it so that it's harder to kill enemies that are at your level or higher.

They also introduce things like casting and cooldowns, all of which serve the purpose of increasing the time it takes to do something.

See "Time sink": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_sink

[spacer]

I understand what you are saying i mean that why cant i run around shooting people in two shots rather than clicking on something pressing attack and waiting for the life bar to go down. Ive played WoW, LotRO, D&D, Startrek Online, etc.. and they all have the same MMO feel, a game that still had chore quests and things but felt like a single player sandbox game would be a killer.

Most MMOs are the way they are because everything is based on stats. Having your attacks and abilities based on stats gives the player a sense of progression and motivation to find the bigger and better gear (which then fuels longer subscriptions). In addition, having combat last longer than a one or two hits makes it more fun as the player can use a few dozen abilities instead of just a standard "shoot" or "attack" ability. Along those lines, boss battles would be boring if all you had to do was get a group and auto-attack/shoot at it until it died. At least with stats and abilities, the boss battles can be more involved and interactive.

If your attacks always killed a target in one or two hits, then you lose out on the "fun" factor, the progression, motivation to farm better gear, and battle complexity. All of that leads to a game that would get boring after a month or two, and subscriptions would plummet.

[Teebor]

Because if you could die easily from one or two hits then people would get annoyed and quit

if mobs can be killed by just one or two hits in an mmo then it would be boring very quickly as you would just bundle through the levels so quickly and there would be no challenge to it, then you wouldn't need assistance from other players or the fun of grouping so it might as well just be a single player game cause you a removing the multiplayer need from it.

You could try a game like Fallout as this has a scope in size and game play depth similar to an MMO and in a lot of cases better or if you want to try retro you could do Fallout 2 as in that game you can win the game by doing everything from killing everyone you meet to sleeping with everyone you meet AND everything in between.

[Beyond Godlike]

I understand what you are saying i mean that why cant i run around shooting people in two shots rather than clicking on something pressing attack and waiting for the life bar to go down. Ive played WoW, LotRO, D&D, Startrek Online, etc.. and they all have the same MMO feel, a game that still had chore quests and things but felt like a single player sandbox game would be a killer.

Maybe because its a GENRE

I play FPS games, they all have the same feel, point, shoot, use a few hotkeys to throw grenades etc, but its the smae

I play Strategy, same feel, gather resources and command armies

I play MMO games, i theorycraft and plan out my stats, work on gear, things like that

To say all MMO's have the same feel in a bad way is very silly because thats what GENRES are. What you call 'chore quests' are ways of making money, gaining reputation points, a means to an end. I have more fun doing that than any FPS game which lets face it, are more the same than any two MMO's. FPS games are mindless point and click and once youve played one youve mastered them all pretty much(if you have good aim and reflexes ofc).

It seems theres mostly MMO haters in this thread, or elitists that think their genre is somehow more fun...

[Richard Hammond]

Maybe because its a GENRE

I play FPS games, they all have the same feel, point, shoot, use a few hotkeys to throw grenades etc, but its the smae

I play Strategy, same feel, gather resources and command armies

I play MMO games, i theorycraft and plan out my stats, work on gear, things like that

To say all MMO's have the same feel in a bad way is very silly because thats what GENRES are. What you call 'chore quests' are ways of making money, gaining reputation points, a means to an end. I have more fun doing that than any FPS game which lets face it, are more the same than any two MMO's. FPS games are mindless point and click and once youve played one youve mastered them all pretty much(if you have good aim and reflexes ofc).

It seems theres mostly MMO haters in this thread, or elitists that think their genre is somehow more fun...

Did you even read the thread, im the only one being negative about MMOs everyone else supports what you are saying, you dont have to be so defensive because you are an MMO elitist.

I completely disagree with you saying its a Genre, there are FPS MMOs, RTS MMOs, MMORPGs are you saying that an FPS MMO is the same as an MMORPG is the same as an RTS MMO?

Even FPS MMOs have a 'feel' about them that they dont feel as fluid or slick as a regular singleplayer FPS. I guess im not articulating my feelings properly, nevermind.

[Beyond Godlike]

Did you even read the thread, im the only one being negative about MMOs everyone else supports what you are saying, you dont have to be so defensive because you are an MMO elitist.

I completely disagree with you saying its a Genre, there are FPS MMOs, RTS MMOs, MMORPGs are you saying that an FPS MMO is the same as an MMORPG is the same as an RTS MMO?

Even FPS MMOs have a 'feel' about them that they dont feel as fluid or slick as a regular singleplayer FPS. I guess im not articulating my feelings properly, nevermind.

Why would it be called an FPS MMO, or RTS MMO if it was exactly the same playstyle as an MMO? :blink:

I am definitely not an MMO elitist, but people here, not just you are referring to MMO's as chores, as engineered addiction games, etc etc. Theyre games, all games are engineered to be addictive otherwise people wouldnt buy them.

[treemonster]

some good responses but yeah it's the genre. and no fps "mmos" are very similar to normal fps imho(having tried a few) except they have some kind of long term progression to them and online pve content.

i've played mmo's where combat was very slow, and i've played mmo's where combat was bam bam dead. wow happens to be a happy medium. normal mobs die fast in teh first 80 levels and leveling speed is pretty quick compared to many mmo's.

mmo's are not for everyone, and there are parts of them that make me groan. my wet dream mmo is a world pvp fest where you get max level in a day or a week and then pvp the rest of the time while doing fast simple things to get gear upgrades, and fight over the spots where you can do those things. but that's not likely to happen.

the thing about combat being so slow compared to fps is, usually people are doing something like killing a mob, so if someone comes and ganks them, if combat is too fast they will be dead before they know what's going on. me personally i like having a chance to defend against ganks, even when i'm the one doing the ganking.

there are many innovative mmo's that try new things while keeping the rpg roots(which is where the game play is based upon). they don't always get it right but it can be refreshing to try these games out, especially when they're less wow clone and more something new. i suggest checking out tera for something new. but many people want something familiar yet innovative if they want to play an fps they will go play cs or black ops or w/e, but at the same time people don't want 10million wow clones either, since if they want wow they will play wow.

just like any other genre, games in the mmo genre have a particular feel to them. just because you slap a cash shop and a progression bar on an rts or fps game does not make it an mmo imho, although some mmofps have been pretty decent(such as global agenda). if you don't like them then don't play them. as simple as that. there are upcoming mmo's that try to break the mold, and we will see how they go.

[Beyond Godlike]

some good responses but yeah it's the genre. and no fps "mmos" are very similar to normal fps imho(having tried a few) except they have some kind of long term progression to them and online pve content.

i've played mmo's where combat was very slow, and i've played mmo's where combat was bam bam dead. wow happens to be a happy medium. normal mobs die fast in teh first 80 levels and leveling speed is pretty quick compared to many mmo's.

mmo's are not for everyone, and there are parts of them that make me groan. my wet dream mmo is a world pvp fest where you get max level in a day or a week and then pvp the rest of the time while doing fast simple things to get gear upgrades, and fight over the spots where you can do those things. but that's not likely to happen.

the thing about combat being so slow compared to fps is, usually people are doing something like killing a mob, so if someone comes and ganks them, if combat is too fast they will be dead before they know what's going on. me personally i like having a chance to defend against ganks, even when i'm the one doing the ganking.

there are many innovative mmo's that try new things while keeping the rpg roots(which is where the game play is based upon). they don't always get it right but it can be refreshing to try these games out, especially when they're less wow clone and more something new. i suggest checking out tera for something new. but many people want something familiar yet innovative if they want to play an fps they will go play cs or black ops or w/e, but at the same time people don't want 10million wow clones either, since if they want wow they will play wow.

just like any other genre, games in the mmo genre have a particular feel to them. just because you slap a cash shop and a progression bar on an rts or fps game does not make it an mmo imho, although some mmofps have been pretty decent(such as global agenda). if you don't like them then don't play them. as simple as that. there are upcoming mmo's that try to break the mold, and we will see how they go.

an FPS MMO that was good was Global Agenda before they ruined it. Anyone of any level could join the fight right away and be competitive as level didnt matter enough to make max level players unkillable to a lvl 1. It had just the perfect balance IMO before they started shifting too much towards MMO and did it wrong.

[ahhell]

Most MMOs feel the same for one simple reason....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

MMOs are ridiculously expensive to developn and no or few companies would be willing to risk going outside the box incase the game fails. They just go with what's popular today as it's cheaper, safer, and easier.

Even the big dev companies are guilty of this. Just look at the giant **** pile that FF14 is.

[Beyond Godlike]

Most MMOs feel the same for one simple reason....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

MMOs are ridiculously expensive to developn and no or few companies would be willing to risk going outside the box incase the game fails. They just go with what's popular today as it's cheaper, safer, and easier.

Even the big dev companies are guilty of this. Just look at the giant **** pile that FF14 is.

From what i understand, FF14 is a niche game, they warned ppl they wouldnt like it if they were into the standard MMO play, i personally dont like it either but i know others that adore it

[treemonster]

an FPS MMO that was good was Global Agenda before they ruined it. Anyone of any level could join the fight right away and be competitive as level didnt matter enough to make max level players unkillable to a lvl 1. It had just the perfect balance IMO before they started shifting too much towards MMO and did it wrong.

the reason i mentioned is because unlike alot of these asian f2p fps "mmo's" that are just regular fps games with a chat room lobby and cash shop and a grind and some pve maps tacked on, it has actual mmo style maps and and social hubs and quests and stuff like that.

i could compare to another mmo fps, apb, which was basically a big arena map with cars that you got randomly matched up with other players at any given time with both poor rpg elements and poor fps mechanics. and a huge emphasis on cahracter look customization which is proving to be a major cause of performance bog and lag in many new mmo's these days.

Most MMOs feel the same for one simple reason....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

MMOs are ridiculously expensive to developn and no or few companies would be willing to risk going outside the box incase the game fails. They just go with what's popular today as it's cheaper, safer, and easier.

Even the big dev companies are guilty of this. Just look at the giant **** pile that FF14 is.

pretty much true for any game these days. look at the fps blockbusters that come out on consoles for example. huge budgets and pretty much cookie cutter yearly installments with a new skin.

it's possible for any game in any genre to be modest in it's goals and budgets and do something different and look great and have plenty of content at launch as long as the dev team stays on task and doesn't waste time doing silly things and manages their money and time and people/talent well. there are a few small mmo dev companies out there that are doing better than big experienced mmo dev studios, same goes for fps and other genres.

ff14 isn't quite true of the wow clone thing. it doesn't even build on what was good in ff11. it's far less playable than ff11 was at launch with less content and some kind of crazy ultra hardcore paradigm that doesn't even appeal to loyal ff11 players. hell even the japanese who love nothing more than ultra grindy rpg's hate it. and the problem isn't so much that it tries to do somethign new, it's just that it so poorly coded and designed that the sum of the product is god awful. between the awful interface lag causing vendoring your inventory to take 15 minutes and the slow boring combat and the hardcore CDs on quests(leves), it's just a hard game to like no matter how hardcore you are. there's a reason that SE sacked the dev team and has been not charging a fee for it since launch.

[Dashel]

Its simply a technology limitation in regards to scope. The more real-time the action is, the more limited the player count must be (within certain boundaries). MMOs generally have a global cooldown for this reason. That and the RPG stat elements breed better subscription models.

As far as RDR or GT4 being an MMO, well, they aren't designed for massive amounts of players. If they were the game would be different to begin with. That and I really don't see what they could offer that would justify a subscription model.

There are 'real time' MMOs but require heavy instancing, like DDO for example.

[Massiveterra]

As far as a GTA MMO, remember APB?

[Huleboeren]

They are this way to hide the insane lag :p

[treemonster]

meh it's no liket fps don't have hidden cooldowns for different things. like reload time and ****.

[Beyond Godlike]

As far as a GTA MMO, remember APB?

APB didnt exist long enough to be remembered by most haha

[Huleboeren]

meh it's no liket fps don't have hidden cooldowns for different things. like reload time and ****.

Can you elaborate? :p

[Minifig]

From what i understand, FF14 is a niche game, they warned ppl they wouldnt like it if they were into the standard MMO play, i personally dont like it either but i know others that adore it

No, Final Fantasy 14 has failed, miserably. It's so bad, they gave their members two free months of play time before deciding to fire the current people working on it and hired new staff. They're also giving free months up until the game is sorted.

It's flat out awful.

[Olemus]

Can you elaborate? :p

Fairly sure he means that reloading is like a cooldown in an mmo, to which I disagree.

[bjoswald]

Probably because MMO's try to make it feel like an epic adventure. In your average, mindless FPS, you pick up a gun and blow everything apart. In your average, mindless hack-'n'-slash RPG, you kill the same crap over and over, port back to town, sell the junk it dropped, and continue on. But in an MMO, you do all this to build up to something bigger. Perhaps you're working to help your faction/race/city overcome another kingdom. Perhaps you're attempting to dethrone some kind of evil god. Perhaps you're just really hate elves and you want to kill their entire army, one by one. That's the way I see it, anyway.

[xendrome]

Honestly, this title is like asking why is a sandwich sandwich-like.....

[nub]

Honestly, this title is like asking why is a sandwich sandwich-like.....

Exactly what I was thinking.