thommcg Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 ... That's why ALL open-source software are so fugly and unproductive. Source? ... :) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593644782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamminium Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I have only used [...] Kubuntu. I see the problem there. PCLinuxOS is a world different from Kubuntu even though both are based on KDE, and now that KDE has reached 4.6, there should be more pleasant changes. But I find the Windows Aero so incredibly beautiful and productive that nothing else comes close to it. On Linux, you can customise the UI (also don't forget the widgets in KDE) however you want, and yes, if you really love Aero, you can get it, too. The window behaviours found in Win 7 have long existed in Linux. Thus, open source software has really made its mark in the hall of beauty with productivity and customisability. I don't use Linux full time but I believe credit should be given where credit is due. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593644796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Have you used a polished KDE distro like OpenSUSE or PCLinuxOS yet? UI-wise, the only thing that shines in Win 7 is the Superbar. For other tasks, KDE is either the same or better IMO. :) I'm a Windows user btw. lol Not so good looking UI but definitely not unproductive. Give Blender a go? Also most KDE programs sport an aesthetic and consistent UI and a decent level of productivity. Did you just give BLENDER!!! as an example of a good FOSS designed interface ? the app that in the whole 3D community is hated for it's horrible backward impossible to use interface with absolutely no intuitiveness. Seriously ? BLENDER!? the only thing blender has going for it is that it's free, it's however so horrible to use, peopel rather spends tens of thousands of dollars for other apps to do the same thing. Try Max or Lightwave and then try Blender, heck even hard to use apps like Maya are lightyears ahead of it. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593644846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frylock86 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 OK, I agree KDE is a nice desktop environment, although it's no where near the level of Windows 7. But I was thinking more in the line of individual software like OpenOffice, GIMP, NetBeans, Eclipse, Firefox for Linux, Inkscape, Pidgin, VLC Player -- all of them have so fugly and unproductive UI, especially compared to the proprietary alternatives like Office 2010, Photoshop CS5, Visual Studio 2010, IE9 on Windows 7, Illustrator, WMP12, WLM 2011 etc. Agreed. You can add Wireshark to that list as well. All I can figure out how to do with it is capture traffic. It seems most OSS software likes function over form, I got the impression that it liked to be that way exactly cause of the changes in Windows and Office since Vista. "Hey, hate the look? Afraid to train users to the new layout of Windows and Office? Use Linux and open source we still got it! No training needed!" But since mainstream computing is moving away from function over form, OSS hasn't been able to keep up, mainly due to the lack of mainstream development. Linux never did gain enough momentum to tackle the desktop, and despite a few holdouts, lost the war to Apple and Microsoft. Therefore, it seems most OSS development was done by people in their spare time who were not able to put more effort into the UI. As the world moves more into touch enabled devices, these OSS programs are going to loose out altogether. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593644870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashmir Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 OK, I agree KDE is a nice desktop environment, although it's no where near the level of Windows 7. But I was thinking more in the line of individual software like OpenOffice, GIMP, NetBeans, Eclipse, Firefox for Linux, Inkscape, Pidgin, VLC Player -- all of them have so fugly and unproductive UI, especially compared to the proprietary alternatives like Office 2010, Photoshop CS5, Visual Studio 2010, IE9 on Windows 7, Illustrator, WMP12, WLM 2011 etc. Yes, I love how Photoshop integrates so nicely with the rest of the Windows UI. The GIMP does exactly the same as Photoshop, the only difference is that it is a multi-window GUI and that it doesn't look out of place (on Linux that is). I don't know if you noticed, but Windows Aero and UI consistency is still a mess on Windows and that is a huge problem in productivity. If I have to learn how to use every single application again and again (seriously, finding menu options in Windows is just a guess game, (for example the icons in WLM, they just are meaningless, small and all over the place, and the same goes for WMP12, Windows Explorer, and Internet Explorer (the Options window anyone?))), how exactly does that improve my productivity? Right, it doesn't. On Linux developers actually respect the HIG (although I don't say there aren't any exceptions but it's a lot better than on Windows). Furthermore, Pidgin (or Empathy) looks just as good on Linux as WLM does on Windows, minus the huge ads at the bottom of the screen (and no, you can't turn those off in the main window). Banshee and Rhythmbox do exactly the same as WMP12, are just as 'productive' and also look good. For Firefox 4 goes the same thing. The list goes on and on. Concering LibreOffice, I agree that Microsoft Office currently does look better and is more productive, but LibreOffice is going to catch up now that the number of developers working on the suite has improved greatly. But to say that Linux is fugly and counter-productive, is just not true. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhangm Supervisor Posted January 29, 2011 Supervisor Share Posted January 29, 2011 None is faster because you are doing it wrong in believing that HCI is just about benchmarking presses. Your "Ribbon" "just works" because it removes contexts blocks. Do you want an example? Where is the "Save" context block? There isn't one as a context block. Actions that manipulate the document content are arranged in the ribbon tabs. Actions that manipulate the document itself are in the File tab. Save options are placed at the top, since they are the most used of the options given. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjoswald Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 As long as I can get GTK theme/icon support, I couldn't care less if I use OO or Libre at this point. It's nothing more than a couple patches and slight UI changes to me. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo158 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 None is faster because you are doing it wrong in believing that HCI is just about benchmarking presses. Your "Ribbon" "just works" because it removes contexts blocks. Do you want an example? Where is the "Save" context block? There isn't one as a context block. The "Ribbon" or context-browsing interfaces are completely legitimate to use, but never in this grade of application. It's exactly the opposite. Unless you're mentioning something sort-of related... but that's a whole different chapter. In HCI terms, you're right, it's not just about button presses. But another aspect to HCI design is ergonomics and these two principles spring to mind as well: Proximity Compatibility Principle - linking functions by colour, pattern, shape or, as Microsoft chose to do, function. Priciple of Predictive Aiding - allows the user to not only focus on current conditions, inserting a table, but also think about possible future conditions, showing the Table Tools Ribbon when editing the table. Would you rather hide the advanced functions from the user and not give them a chance to use them, lets face it menus and toolbars are an absolute mess, great for 90s computing but not today. As others have said, the ribbon increases productivity but it also enhances the workflow within the application as all the functions, even the more advanced ones, are there when you need them. Here's some examples: Insert a Table and the Table Ribbon appears giving access to specific functions for the Table. Insert a Picture and the Picture Ribbon appears giving... do I really have to continue. The Save "context block" doesn't exist because it simply isn't needed, the Save button on the quick access toolbar or on the File/Backstage menu is fine for that function, you do know that clicking Save on an untitled document opens the Save As dialog don't you? Why shouldn't it be used "in this grade of application"? Nice of you to back up that arguement with nothing :rolleyes: I'll also ask this, What "grade of application" should the Ribbon be used in then? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Yes, I love how Photoshop integrates so nicely with the rest of the Windows UI. The GIMP does exactly the same as Photoshop, the only difference is that it is a multi-window GUI and that it doesn't look out of place (on Linux that is). riiiiight... you're a bit mis informed, but yeah you can use Gimp for some light photoshop work. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo158 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Agreed. You can add Wireshark to that list as well. All I can figure out how to do with it is capture traffic. It seems most OSS software likes function over form, I got the impression that it liked to be that way exactly cause of the changes in Windows and Office since Vista. "Hey, hate the look? Afraid to train users to the new layout of Windows and Office? Use Linux and open source we still got it! No training needed!" But since mainstream computing is moving away from function over form, OSS hasn't been able to keep up, mainly due to the lack of mainstream development. Linux never did gain enough momentum to tackle the desktop, and despite a few holdouts, lost the war to Apple and Microsoft. Therefore, it seems most OSS development was done by people in their spare time who were not able to put more effort into the UI. As the world moves more into touch enabled devices, these OSS programs are going to loose out altogether. Agreed, but, I would say mainstream computing is moving towards form AND function. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growled Member Posted January 30, 2011 Member Share Posted January 30, 2011 Concering LibreOffice, I agree that Microsoft Office currently does look better and is more productive, but LibreOffice is going to catch up now that the number of developers working on the suite has improved greatly. But to say that Linux is fugly and counter-productive, is just not true. I agree, I think we will see some big changes coming from LibreOffice this year. Sun and Oracle has held down the project for too long. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593645758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperAFK Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 OK, I agree KDE is a nice desktop environment, although it's no where near the level of Windows 7. But I was thinking more in the line of individual software like OpenOffice, GIMP, NetBeans, Eclipse, Firefox for Linux, Inkscape, Pidgin, VLC Player -- all of them have so fugly and unproductive UI, especially compared to the proprietary alternatives like Office 2010, Photoshop CS5, Visual Studio 2010, IE9 on Windows 7, Illustrator, WMP12, WLM 2011 etc. How are VLC and pidgin unproductive? ugly, I may agree with you on but they function quite well. Also firefox 4 has a nice UI (ignoring poor responsiveness), chromium, plenty of nice media players (Amarok/clementine/exaile, banshee). I am sure others can chime in with more examples. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamminium Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Did you just give BLENDER!!! as an example of a good FOSS designed interface ? the app that in the whole 3D community is hated for it's horrible backward impossible to use interface with absolutely no intuitiveness. Seriously ? BLENDER!? Well, I was confused at first, too. But after reading a few guides, I thought the UI was actually quite good. lol Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pompeius Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Hate to burst the bubble of the people saying that dropdowns are terrible, but I recall reading about massive amounts of usability work done on some version of Windows or other that menus were more or less the easiest interface elements to learn. Not that there's no room for improvement, a well-done ribbon is quite nice and pleasant to look at, and potentially quite usable. Let's just not kid ourselves here. There's a reason dropdown menus have been around for so long: they make sense. It's possible to make either the newer interface styles (ribbon and "minimal" chrome-style etc) poorly as well as older ones like the menu/toolbar with which we are all so familiar. The problem is that many developers don't understand that' users dislike dialogs, walls of text, a billion options in their face at once, and so forth. They also have too many toolbar buttons and menu items. At the moment, a ribbon is probably the best (on Windows anyway) means of presenting a usable interface with many options and items. For simple programs, a menu/toolbar combo is probably best in terms of screen space use and usability. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagosilva29 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Did you just give BLENDER!!! as an example of a good FOSS designed interface ? the app that in the whole 3D community is hated for it's horrible backward impossible to use interface with absolutely no intuitiveness. Seriously ? BLENDER!?I laughed because it's true. There were claims that the next version would have a more sane interface but I never cared to look into it.Nice of you to back up that argument with nothing :rolleyes:In the industry it's called pulling a Nielsen. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Charming Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I never got what OpenOffice was. Like a poor man's version of Microsoft Office? And LibreOffice is a poor man's version of OpenOffice...? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kreuger Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 And the difference between this and openoffice ....? Sun/Oracle bought out OpenOffice and there was a fear that it would be discontinued. Edit; While I hate the UI, the design isnt the problem. I think the problem is with the toolkit they used. It actually looks like a Win95 app which in Linux is horrendous. I would just like GTK to be added even as an addon for proper desktop integration. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryster Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 LibreOffice is a horrible name. While I understand that Libre means Free, why couldn't they just call it FreeOffice? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593646600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo158 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 LibreOffice is a horrible name. While I understand that Libre means Free, why couldn't they just call it FreeOffice? Because Libre sounds cool!!!! I laughed because it's true. There were claims that the next version would have a more sane interface but I never cared to look into it. In the industry it's called pulling a Nielsen. I'll have to remember that one!!! Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593647476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growled Member Posted January 31, 2011 Member Share Posted January 31, 2011 Edit; While I hate the UI, the design isnt the problem. I think the problem is with the toolkit they used. It actually looks like a Win95 app which in Linux is horrendous. I would just like GTK to be added even as an addon for proper desktop integration. It would be gorgeous if they would write it in Qt. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593648788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperAFK Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 It would be gorgeous if they would write it in Qt. And with lots of recent advancements QT fits in great in gnome these days too. Would certainly look better than it does now. and QT looks good on windows as well. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593650556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_f Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I never got what OpenOffice was. Like a poor man's version of Microsoft Office? And LibreOffice is a poor man's version of OpenOffice...? Why does something have to be a 'poor man's version' of something else? Why can't it just be an alternative? There are a lot of reasons why someone may chose a FLOSS office suite over commercial, and vice-versa. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593650584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Why does something have to be a 'poor man's version' of something else? Why can't it just be an alternative? There are a lot of reasons why someone may chose a FLOSS office suite over commercial, and vice-versa. yeah, but in this case, it's because you can't afford the real dea, don't want to afford the real deal, or you're a FLOSS follower to the level of being blind to alternatives (ironically) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593650608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichi Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 yeah, but in this case, it's because you can't afford the real dea, don't want to afford the real deal, or you're a FLOSS follower to the level of being blind to alternatives (ironically) If you just need to write a couple of personal documents MS Office is not the real deal, it's a waste of money. I use both MS Office and OOo at work, but for home use why the hell would I want a MS Office license? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593650720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindowsFanatic Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 If you just need to write a couple of personal documents MS Office is not the real deal, it's a waste of money. I use both MS Office and OOo at work, but for home use why the hell would I want a MS Office license? OneNote 2010 -- the greatest software ever created by mankind. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/970932-libreoffice-330-fork-of-openofficeorg-final-released/page/4/#findComment-593650730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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